So what. That doesn’t invalidate their training. If their focus isn’t on fighting, why should you thumb your nose at them?
I’m not thumbing my nose at anyone. Count asked me to post what my teacher thinks of forms. I can’t do that. I can only post what I think of forms. I think I did that.
I can apreciate a good form, especially drunken boxing forms. I can apreciate gymnastics, high-diving, great surfing, good painting … what do all of these have in common? They are not fighting.
I’m trying to break through the bull$hit. People keep validating form as if it is a means to a fighting ends … it is not. In fact, if you really want to have some fighting skill you’d be better spent spending 4 hours a week drilling lightly with boxing gloves and head gear than spending 14 hours doing form.
These debates are kind of rediculous because the answers are self evident. Go into any martial art school that is heavy into forms and ask to fight … see what happens.
Then go into a school that doesn’t do forms and ask to fight.
One is happy to have you. The other will start talking you to death. Guess which is which?
Some times that guy will also place in the sparring section of the comp. Its not unheard of to be a fighter and an artist. Its like saying your not going to go watch movies anymore because its all make believe. I would laugh my @ss off if someone thought that their sparring made them superior, then stepped, and got creamed. I am sure it has happened before. I dont do comp at all. Does that mean that i suck? Hmm. one could assume such, but does their belief validate fact? No. I dont do comp because frankly I dont like to show off, I get stage fright, and Its not important in my life to show others what i know, its more important to me to really know what I feel I know.
I’m trying to break through the bull$hit. People keep validating form as if it is a means to a fighting ends … it is not
I like what you’re saying for the most part Ray. I think the problem is that some people don’t think forms are invalid as a method of training. I’m not even sure I don’t agree with them. I know there are probably better ways to train to fight, but I’m not sure I don’t consider forms a valid point of training of one sort or another.
Originally posted by Ray Pina
[B]I’m not thumbing my nose at anyone. Count asked me to post what my teacher thinks of forms. I can’t do that. I can only post what I think of forms. I think I did that.
I can apreciate a good form, especially drunken boxing forms. I can apreciate gymnastics, high-diving, great surfing, good painting … what do all of these have in common? They are not fighting.
I’m trying to break through the bull$hit. People keep validating form as if it is a means to a fighting ends … it is not. In fact, if you really want to have some fighting skill you’d be better spent spending 4 hours a week drilling lightly with boxing gloves and head gear than spending 14 hours doing form.
These debates are kind of rediculous because the answers are self evident. Go into any martial art school that is heavy into forms and ask to fight … see what happens.
Then go into a school that doesn’t do forms and ask to fight.
One is happy to have you. The other will start talking you to death. Guess which is which? [/B]
I see your point now. It is valid.
Originally posted by red5angel
I like what you’re saying for the most part Ray. I think the problem is that some people don’t think forms are invalid as a method of training. I’m not even sure I don’t agree with them. I know there are probably better ways to train to fight, but I’m not sure I don’t consider forms a valid point of training of one sort or another.
We can put it like this, Forms definately help give you an edge when it comes to repetition of techniques for live combat. While sparring gives you an edge when it comes to “feeling the flow” of live combat. Point is both sides are right.
This conversation just reminds me of that guy at every party…you know, that guy that spends the whole night talking about fighting or UFC, bugs everyone to spar and then gets mad when no one will because it’s a party. He usually ends up starting a fight with some poor sap so he can demonstrate to the rest of the party how superior his training really is, then doesn’t understand why all the chicks are pissed at him.
This guy of course is fictional, but we all know him and I’d go so far as to suggest he posts here.
the problem with these arguments is that you always have to put perspective on it.
Some people are training to fight professionally, some people arent’ training to fight at all.
Some people study an art taht does a lot of forms, some people study an art that doesn’t use forms at all.
Some people belive the martial arts is about building character, some people think its about destroying your opponent.
We could go on and on and on and on ad naseum but who’s right?
Ive met “that guy” before. I was 20 at a party, and this dude wanted to do exactly that. He ended up being a drunk fool, started a fight with this dude, who was mackin on some chick. Dude got up and smashed “that guy” into the wall, then threw him through the coffee table. It was d@mn funny. He was so ****ed off all he could do is get up and leave, everyone was laughing at him for being such a jerk then getting served. Other dude just went back to his mack game. Needless to say his game went well after that.
PangQuan, I highly agree with you. In fact, when I was a kid I always competed in forms, weapon forms and kumite … most of my trophies were for sparring, though I thought my forms were good. I just tended to be a little chubby as a kid. I won a few trophies for weapons forsm because at the time (late 70s early 80s) I was the only kid my age:)
I’ll also never compete in a “traditional” tournament again after getting tossed from the Fe Hung for “illegal face contact” in both sparring and Chi Sau … you could hit the side of the head but not square … so I should hook a 250 lber (no weight limit) charging in:rolleyes:
Now I’m interested in San Da and MMA even more so.
…
Master Killer, that guy at the party you speak of is a d1ck. You should stay away from him especially if he’s been drinking and there’s girls around. But then again, you should be able to grab him firmly by the shoulder (but politely) and tell him, “Relax, we’re trying to have a good time” and because of your training, that’s all it should take, right?
Originally posted by red5angel
[B]the problem with these arguments is that you always have to put perspective on it.
Some people are training to fight professionally, some people arent’ training to fight at all.
Some people study an art taht does a lot of forms, some people study an art that doesn’t use forms at all.
Some people belive the martial arts is about building character, some people think its about destroying your opponent.
We could go on and on and on and on ad naseum but who’s right? [/B]
I would say that we are all right, seeing as how each of us train for many varied reasons, all of those reasons obviously in existance cause we are using them. Diversity, its what makes the world go round.
I’ve got no illusions about what I do. I can fight, but I’m no killer. I can do forms, but I’m no champ. But that’s all you get when you put in 10 hours a week, which is about all I can muster right now.
MK made a good point about perspective I think is rarely considered as well. Ray and Ross’ guys al train to compete in sports, something that requires more precise training. One who trains to defend themselves may not necessarily require that type of intense training. I’m not saying it wouldn’t help of course, I’m just saying it’s not necessary to be a “good” fighter.
just thought i would provide a link to a “real” kung fu master. You can see his technique in play.
sorry pangquan, he would never get that off in a real fight 
LOL, but its proof, look, I have a picture. C’mon he has mystical skills. Dont you believe me?
Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
Think about the word FORM. So what would you learn from a form? Correct form. Should you just blast away at a heavy bag before you learn the correct way to punch or kick?
or should you do them both in conjunction? you are shown how to punch, then you drill it on pads? as your feeder, I am able to make corrections as necessary while you are hitting the pad.
How many injuries before you get it right (hopefully no permanent ones). When I was young I had a friend who lifted weights. He told me he screwed up his wrists lifting heavy weights incorrectly. Maybe he should have practiced his FORM with just the bar first.
indeed he should have. not knowing what you are doing can get you hurt. however, knowing what you are doing (or thinking you do) and trying it to an extreme will get you hurt too - for example, the guy who knows proper lifting form, but try to lift too heavy and tear their muscles, or the trained ma who has never sparred and steps into a ring fight.
[b]Martial Art or Martial Science?
Forms teach the art of fighting, not just the mechanics. That’s why there are so many styles out there. Individual expression, an art form.
Some are only interested in martial science. They train a few basic techniques and then use them in sparring.
Some like the martial art. They like to study the more elaborate moves and distance themselves from the cookie-cutter, if A then B types. They express their movement in fighting.[/b]
do you think that the martial science types do not express their movement in fighting?
Originally posted by PangQuan
Ive met “that guy” before. I was 20 at a party, and this dude wanted to do exactly that. He ended up being a drunk fool, started a fight with this dude, who was mackin on some chick. Dude got up and smashed “that guy” into the wall, then threw him through the coffee table. It was d@mn funny. He was so ****ed off all he could do is get up and leave, everyone was laughing at him for being such a jerk then getting served. Other dude just went back to his mack game. Needless to say his game went well after that.
my bad dude, I hope it didn’t hurt to bad. Just so you know though, yeah, smashing you into the wall did help my game. she was impressed, thought i a badass with street cred and, well, I won’t talk about the rest of the night 
Originally posted by count
[B]Sorry for bringing up a topic again, but obviously from your opinion, it hasn’t been discussed enough.
There are many ways to build structure, power, and speed. Moving your hands around in the air is not one of them. A technique has to be drilled hundreds of times against resistance. (SPJ already pointed this out) How many times do you practice your form to get the same results? Will you always step in the same direction if someone is moving around you? You have to train footwork. For endurance, timing, against an opponent. How will a form teach you the proper angles, timing, and usage in various conditions? No, you’ll have to convince me forms can accomplish that. Just saying something you heard isn’t going to cut it.
[/B]
not necissarly. if you get too into the drill of things, when something doesnt go right you will be confused. so you have to mix it up. you jsut cant drill the technique how it looks in the form over and over.
its more applying what you learn in forms. some people just choose to do the drills and avoid forms all together. you can learn techniques and applications from forms. but you learn by doing. a good teacher can show you that. a good teacher can tell you why forms are good. but that same teacher will tell you that you cant just do forms to become a good fighter. that teacher will tell you have to fight and practice different drills to become a good fighter.
Sevenstar couldn’t smash anyone thru a wall made in 8th grade shop class, and the only coffee table would actually be part of a little girls’ tea set. He won’t talk about the rest of the night because Righty got too drunk.