When people talk about B.S. in the Kung Fu world, I usually hear about chi-blast demos, fraudulent lineages, etc. This should be addressed, but I think that schools teaching forms without application are far more common then the aforementioned crap.
I haven’t experienced forms without applications being shown with.
usually, shape comes first, then where to put the jin, then apps, then extrapolation in free sparring.
My old school did/still does this.
I would ask my sifu what a certain move or technique was and I could tell that he was making it up right there on the spot.
Now there is something to this because some different moves can be interpreted differently by different people. He encouraged us to find the meaning of certain moves on our own but never made time for drilling or practicing these techniques.
This is actually one of the main reasons why I left my old school.
I’m of the opinon that techniques need to be drilled, drilled again and drilled some more. Only through constant drilling and practice can a technique be internalized and made your own.
My old sifu didn’t see it this way. By his own admission, he just loves forms.
He would probably argue that there are so many similar techniques in forms that the repetition and eventual internalization of a technique would come from form practice.
Now I like forms and think that they are a major part of learning kung fu but they are not the only part. You have to practice individual techniques on a bag or dummy and then practice them with a partner and then hopefully you can make the jump to using them in a sparring situation. Again, just my opinion.
I discourage my students from becoming “forms collectors”. Many MA peeps want to run from style to style collecting forms, or are in a hurry to learn all the forms in one style.
Our style has only three empty hand forms. Each form teaches the same theories, yet each form builds on the previous in complexity.
I could teach a beginning student the moves of one of the forms in a month at the most. A skilled martial artist could pick up the first or second form in a single seminar. But making the theories a part of one’s skill set takes quite a bit of time.
In my experience, the more highly skilled a person is, the more superficially they approach forms training. 
Richard
I used to collect forms, now I only do the core set of my style, and that is it.
I’m a forms collector. Right now I got 30 something forms in my arsenal. lol
my friends used to call me a form-nator and form maker at the same time.
I like to make apart the forms and practice single move in several parts such as stance only, hand move only and then together.
a form terminator or taking them apart into bits one posture at a time.
I also like to combine some variants of the same posture and string 2 or 3 postures together as a practice set.
I make more short sequences out of the forms.
a form generator, sort of.
usually the teacher would show you some applications.
but if you take the forms apart or look at hand/wrist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, chest/back, waist, hip, knee and foot etc. you may derive more apps based on theories and principles.
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take notes of apps and your derivations.
is there only one app in the posture, 3 or more?
Forms are out, drills are in.
drills are always in…especially after you learn the form they are taken from.
mid size forms, from 35 postures to 60 postures. I can handle them.
88 or more are just too long.
I would remove the repeats or continuation moves and shrink them down to non repeatable.
forms are like items in a menu.
you pick some and practice.
you probably would not eat every single item on the menu in a restaurant.
you probably would just pick some items for a meal/practice session.
I consider myself kinda lucky in this regard. My sifu won’t teach me anymore forms till I get better at the ones I already know. And ya know what? He’s right. 10 open hands, 1 pole form. That’s alot to digest man. I already figured out I “ate” too much, but I don’t wanna have to go back and relearn anything, so I’m dealing with the slower process of learning as it is.
Would it be easier just focusing on one form, then progressing through more and more? Probably. Hell, I’ve been everything but told in those exact words it would be.
But it wouldn’t be nearly as challenging.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;722365]I haven’t experienced forms without applications being shown with.[/QUOTE]
Really? Never? I notice something about you. From your posts, it seems you have never seen a lousy school under a Kung Fu banner. 
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;722602]drills are always in…especially after you learn the form they are taken from. :D[/QUOTE]
One reason that much of kung fu doesn’t work very well is because of the emphasis on forms. Drills should come from fighting, not from forms.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;723476]One reason that much of kung fu doesn’t work very well is because of the emphasis on forms. Drills should come from fighting, not from forms.[/QUOTE]
This is the endless circle of “can fight”.
[QUOTE=Flying-Monkey;723478]This is the endless circle of “can fight”.[/QUOTE]
Effective fighting = concepts, principles, techniques, drills and conditioning are all informed by fighting. These things are constantly evolving as fighting proves some things to be more efffective than others. Fighting is what matters and techniques come directly from this.
Ineffective fighting = concepts, principles, techniques, drills and conditioning are all informed by forms. The main consideration is on how close one can come to doing his forms correctly, not on how effective he can fight. Techniques come from the forms, rather than from fighting.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;723487]Effective fighting = concepts, principles, techniques, drills and conditioning are all informed by fighting. These things are constantly evolving as fighting proves some things to be more efffective than others. Fighting is what matters and techniques come directly from this.
Ineffective fighting = concepts, principles, techniques, drills and conditioning are all informed by forms. The main consideration is on how close one can come to doing his forms correctly, not on how effective he can fight.[/QUOTE]
Sorry. I wanted to write “can’t”. I was agreeing with you.
I am a form collector, I can preform around 20 perfectly(well I have won form competitions with 3 of my 20 forms).
Though I collect forms, I still attend my long fist/praying mantis class and my sifu teaches me the meaning behind the forms. Knowing the forms for me is a base on which I can advance.
Edit: Oh and just to make it clear, I spar and practice on bags twice as much as I do forms.
A good Kung Fu practitioner must understand the applications of forms.
collecting techniques. I was so guilty of it in the beginning.
after a while, I know that it is only a useless exercise.
b/c fighting is a random event, you strike where the opening occurs or when the opponent is not prepared.
one teacher said we have to change b/c everything changes meaning we have to be flexible and not fighting the way as you practice or “expected”.
another teacher said if you only master one move that is all you need. everything else is a set up for your ultimate move.
another teacher said the highest level of forms is actually formless.
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I was like–
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:eek: 