Learning to fight: Part One- Forms

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

I believe if people want to learn to use their martial arts martially they need forms but not in the traditional sense. Movements in forms should mimic the actual technique or activity that needs to be done. Movements should be able to applied the same way the move is applied in the air. Moves that are linked together build rhythm in movement but do little to learn SKILLS.

Standard forms should not be taught formally as part of the curriculum. When students are doing sparring activities they will inevitably not be able to: 1. Pull of a throw/strike/joint lock technique. The move then gets isolated in the air by the student and drilled until the student’s body mechanics have improved and he can pull the move off on command. Then he will be reintroduced to technique drilling/sparring. The “form” I mentioned should be done at home when the student has no partners for two-person activities.

If a student finds he cannot strike with sufficient power with a particular strike on the bag in the school the same rules apply. When he goes home he drills THAT strike slowly in the air(assuming he does not have a heavy bag at home) to develop the proper body mechanics. Then he returns to the bag the next time he is at the gym or school.

Kung fu has a lot of unique looking strikes that can and should be isolated in form drilling to be utilized for sparring. Isolate that strike with its specific energy(outward, curved, circular, down, up, etc) and develop it separate from the whole form if you are inclined to doing forms.

Forms are useful to develop specific movements/techniques. When people argue that it helps the body move like a particular style they can never explain why it all falls apart during sparring. During sparring this student starts "kickboxing’ and gets told he is not doing wombat foo, wing chun, etc. Then he goes back to drilling that form to so that he can have the same end product again next week.

These are just for entertainment value so do not let it take away from the original post. Let us try to have a productive conversation for once.
I can see the typical responses already so I am going to type so I will just type it for you.

Tentigers: “I am so awesome and hung huge. But beyond that we are talking about kung foo. The traditional way was never to teach forms first. There was drilling, sparring, power training, AND THEN forms. It is only in the last generation that teachers have been doing this kind of teaching. I am so gigantic that girls love me long time. Oh crap I am ranting again.”

Bawang: “Mang, sifus are just trying to steal your monies. STop doing the forms and stop the sissy wing chung.”

David Jameson: “I agree with you 100% on everything you ever say, Mysteriouspower. You have hit the nail right on the head. Other than that I just copy and paste whatever tentigers says because I like to sound like a know it all too.”

Earthdragon: “Your knowledge is so awesome that I want to have your baby.”

Knifefighter: (In response to responses to my original post) "Another clueless kung fu guy trying to say he can fight while practicing dance moves.

If I missed anyone let me know.

2

You do NOT need forms to learn to fight or to become a good, even great fighter.
That has been proven over and over and over by all those systems that do NOT use forms.
That said, many MA are about quite a bit more than just fighting.

3

Trolling troll is trolling.

Let it be know that I don’t give a shit about your opinion.

4

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1052196]Trolling troll is trolling.

Let it be know that I don’t give a shit about your opinion.[/QUOTE]

That is not even English. I do not understand your post.

5

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1052195]You do NOT need forms to learn to fight or to become a good, even great fighter.
That has been proven over and over and over by all those systems that do NOT use forms.
That said, many MA are about quite a bit more than just fighting.[/QUOTE]

Maybe forms is the wrong word. What if you replaced the word forms with “isolated movements”? You never ever practice something in the air just to have it “good” so you can try to pull it off better against a partner?

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[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1052197]I’m a fuking moron, please help me to learn a language other than stupid ass hole[/QUOTE]

there ya go trolling troll.

7

I consider shadowboxing to be a kind of form but not in the tma way of being a form. It is the random form.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1052202]there ya go trolling troll.[/QUOTE]

You must be so glad you took me off ignore. Why do you read my threads if you do not like them or my opinion? I know why. Because you are bored to death and starved for someone to talk to while you droll through the way day…right before you lose your mind at the bar.

9

[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1052201]Maybe forms is the wrong word. What if you replaced the word forms with “isolated movements”? You never ever practice something in the air just to have it “good” so you can try to pull it off better against a partner?[/QUOTE]

Forms tend to equal, typically, a set of prearranged moves.
You are thinking of “shadow boxing” or “freestyle air boxing” ( a old greek term used by the boxers and pankration guys by the way).
The problem with beating the air is that it has NO resistence and doesn’t hit back, of course the doesn’t hit back thing is not the point but the no resistence is a huge thning because it changes the whole way a technique or series of combos are done ( typically).

10

Movements in forms should mimic the actual technique or activity that needs to be done.

I compare forms to language, you learn sperarte letters, then put letters together to form words then words to form sentances and sentacnes to form stories.

this is like learning a form, it shoudl be a story and your interpretation of what you have been shown. This requires your flavor and twist. It cannot look like the application becuse the application will be simple to the point and sharp. Froms are for showing applications are for practical use and will not strem together in a flowing sentance but more like a word. Does that help you understand?

the other reason is that many old styles in China hid thier applications in the form so when praticed in public, these onlookers could not train against thier techniques. in the Chen village it is said that Yang xiao, looked through a hole in the wall during the night watching and copying the chen family doing taji as they would not show the real taji in public or during the day.

I hope this helps your understanding of application vs form adn thier each important in thier own right. It seems as though you posts come from a lack or understanding the whys and wny nots.. perhaps its time to seek out a teacher

11

Lots of martial artist do yoga, doing many forms also does similar work in an activity specific manner, provided one is doing the moves informed not solely by the form, but by shadow boxing and drilling and sparring.

Additionally, doing the form reminds one of moves that are not trained for fighting yet, because the moves that are trained for fighting will tend to be better informed(and thus, cleaner) than those where the work is not done yet, so that, by doing the form, a productive person takes advantage of a chance to observe moves that aren’t their bread and butter, or don’t come up often for them(because the move favors the tall guy, and one is short, or vice versa, etc.).

In short, I simply don’t agree that forms are, by definition, a waste of time. Doing multiple forms as one’s core is, imo, but one? Not really.

It’s not doing fight training that makes it a waste of time, from a perspective of developing fighting skills.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1052206]Forms tend to equal, typically, a set of prearranged moves.
You are thinking of “shadow boxing” or “freestyle air boxing” ( a old greek term used by the boxers and pankration guys by the way).
The problem with beating the air is that it has NO resistence and doesn’t hit back, of course the doesn’t hit back thing is not the point but the no resistence is a huge thning because it changes the whole way a technique or series of combos are done ( typically).[/QUOTE]

I think we are talking about the same thing. I did mention that you bring it back into sparring/drilling after doing it in the air.

13

[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1052193]I Tentigers: "I am so awesome and hung huge.[/QUOTE]
among the many points that you have missed, you obviously missed the part where I mentioned that I was jewish.
we are never hung huge…
but yes…I am awesome. Thank you.

They actually found out that parrots do have an idea of what they are saying when they repeat words they have heard.
you…not so much.

I don’t think MP is a troll. I think he simply acts as a catalyst for us to have enjoyable banter on the forum. He says something stupid, and then everyone gets going. He’s like that Monday morning cup of coffee.
Kinda like George Burns did with Gracie Allen. He would say,“How was your day?” And she would talk for a half-hour, and then he would say, “Say Goodnight, Gracie.”

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Say," Goodnight," MP.

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[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1052208]I compare forms to language, you learn sperarte letters, then put letters together to form words then words to form sentances and sentacnes to form stories.

this is like learning a form, it shoudl be a story and your interpretation of what you have been shown. This requires your flavor and twist. It cannot look like the application becuse the application will be simple to the point and sharp. Froms are for showing applications are for practical use and will not strem together in a flowing sentance but more like a word. Does that help you understand?

the other reason is that many old styles in China hid thier applications in the form so when praticed in public, these onlookers could not train against thier techniques. in the Chen village it is said that Yang xiao, looked through a hole in the wall during the night watching and copying the chen family doing taji as they would not show the real taji in public or during the day.

I hope this helps your understanding of application vs form adn thier each important in thier own right. It seems as though you posts come from a lack or understanding the whys and wny nots.. perhaps its time to seek out a teacher[/QUOTE]

There are no applications hidden in forms. This is a fallacy that keeps getting brought up in the tcma. Techniques are done spontaneously in specific situations. The way to develop techniques is by developing them against actual moves you cannot avoid or keep getting hit by.

The form “founders” made up forms as away to memorize THEIR techniques. Everyone should develop their own “forms” based on their own techniques.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1052216]Say," Goodnight," MP.[/QUOTE]

Why? What are you going to do to me after you turn the lights off? Gay.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1052215]among the many points that you have missed, you obviously missed the part where I mentioned that I was jewish.
we are never hung huge…
but yes…I am awesome. Thank you.

They actually found out that parrots do have an idea of what they are saying when they repeat words they have heard.
you…not so much.

I don’t think MP is a troll. I think he simply acts as a catalyst for us to have enjoyable banter on the forum. He says something stupid, and then everyone gets going. He’s like that Monday morning cup of coffee.
Kinda like George Burns did with Gracie Allen. He would say,“How was your day?” And she would talk for a half-hour, and then he would say, “Say Goodnight, Gracie.”[/QUOTE]

I take this as a great compliment. Thanks. You have to admit that my posts reach page 9 million. Whenever David Jameson starts a new thread only he and his mother post on it. No personality. :frowning: Take a look at his weapons post.

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[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1052217]There are no applications hidden in forms. This is a fallacy that keeps getting brought up in the tcma. Techniques are done spontaneously in specific situations. The way to develop techniques is by developing them against actual moves you cannot avoid or keep getting hit by.

The form “founders” made up forms as away to memorize THEIR techniques. Everyone should develop their own forms based on their own techniques.[/QUOTE]
decent point-I don’t think the applications were hidden in the forms by the founders. More like the most basic applications were taught/remembered by whoever passed on the forms. Smarter practitioners were able to expand and extrapolate on the movements-less talented practitioners didn’t learn “the secrets.” Every once in awhile a clever person demonstrates other variations, and lo and behold-“secrets are revealed.” Then comes the seminar and dvd’s…

19

Children get more gratification from breaking things because they get frustrated by their ignorance while discovering they are unable to build anything. this changes according to the intelligence and growth of the child into an adult whereby the change takes place and the misplaced pride is corrected.

The same is true of those who only go somewhere to be disruptive.

It is interesting to watch people who are actually retarded in their social development though, even if they are minimally articulate. lol

20

Movements in the air should be informed by what one has already done against actual partners and opponents.

These movements should come AFTER one has learned the techniques through testing with partners/opponents. The movements should not be predefined, but should be spontaneous based on what one “sees” the partner/opponent doing.