Lets all argue about forms.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Meh im bored so im going to troll. My choice of troll will be predefined pattens of movement or martial choregraphy. Also known as forms, kata, pattens, the evil - what ever floats your boat. Im going to call them forms from now on.

Who here uses forms and what are there view points on them.

Are they useless?

Are they just for show?

Can you become proficent by only practicing form?

Can you become proficent without form at all?

Who is form and why is everyone always complaining about him?

Are old forms better than new ones? If so why?

What is the purpose of this ‘form’?

Does having more forms make you a better martial artist?

Does the length of the form matter?

What elements are required to name something a form?

Whats everyones thoughts?

2

i think…

youre really bored! :smiley:

dawood

3

My straight opinion is that forms are essential in a “complete system”, because you’ll get a good work out from it and it improves your techniques. However, forms are almost useless when training for real fighting effectiveness.

Who here uses forms and what are there view points on them.
I do. As I mentioned above, they have their own pros and cons.

Are they useless?
No.

Are they just for show?
No.

Can you become proficent by only practicing form?
Definitely not.

Can you become proficent without form at all?
Yes.

Who is form and why is everyone always complaining about him?
He is Brahman and everyone is always complaining about it, because we’re all different. :smiley:

Are old forms better than new ones? If so why?
Too broad question.

What is the purpose of this ‘form’?
To attain something and that something differs from person to person.

Does having more forms make you a better martial artist?
Depends, but I’m going to say no.

Does the length of the form matter?
No, but it really depends on your own goals.

What elements are required to name something a form?
Something that has intrinsic value to the system practiced.

4

Are they useless?
Nope

Are they just for show?
Sometimes. Like the new modern wushu compulsory routines.

Can you become proficent by only practicing form?
You can become a slightly better fighter if all you practice forms, but not much.

Can you become proficent without form at all?
I suppose so, depending on how your training system is set up.

Who is form and why is everyone always complaining about him?

Are old forms better than new ones? If so why?
Sometimes. Depends on who created the form and what the purpose is. Some forms might be created as a selection of techniques as shadow boxing, others might be intended to improve your physical condition (qigong), others might be put together to showcase your best skills for competitions or demonstrations.

What is the purpose of this ‘form’?
See above :smiley:

Does having more forms make you a better martial artist?
No way.

Does the length of the form matter?
Depends on the purpose of the form.

What elements are required to name something a form?
I don’t know :smiley: A lot of times the term forms will be used to refer to an individual technique, like in Taijiquan… 24 forms, 108 forms, etc.

5

Ok let’s see.

Look at it this way..

Forms don’t teach you how to fight but it does supplement the way how you fight. It’s two sides of the same coin. Can’t have one without the other in my onpinion.

They have many functions.Forms are like a warehouse of techniques that you can choose from.Pretend that you have an encyclopedia full of techniques that you can look through and pick to work on. It’s like saying “this one doesn’t work, this one might not work well, oooh! This one rocks!” Everyone has didfferent prefrences and that’s the beauty about it. There’s so many to choose form. It’s impossible to master every move unless you have no life like back in the day and just 3 moves are enough or you can choose to master more.

Then you take that techique and you work on it,drill it, explore it, make it natural and start learning how to use it againts resisting force.

Forms are also very good cardio and I can tell you that it has improved my cardio even though I have asthma. Never could run a mile but after one year of kung fu of doing forms and a lot of basics I could run a mile and I never ran once before that! :eek:

Forms are the backbone of the style because they are the database of how the style works.

They also teach you reflex,coordinaton, and speed. However they don’t teach you how to fight. It’s only one part of the same coin! That’s where sparring starts… where forms leave off. In sparring you learn how to stategise, how to move, how to judge and manipulate the opponent.

Let’s compare this to medical school. When people go to school to become surgeons and doctors or whatever they don’t start cutting on the first day.It’s not that easy. No, they have to learn the theory behind it. How to make an incision. In what anlgle does the incision have to be made, how deep is the cut,etc. The basics have to be covered before you go one.

6

Is it better to be zero weighted on the front leg or 50/50?:confused:

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

7

answers

Are they useless? NO

Are they just for show? YES

Can you become proficent by only practicing form? YES

Can you become proficent without form at all? YES

Who is form and why is everyone always complaining about him? NEVER MET THE GUY

Are old forms better than new ones? If so why? NO SUCH THING AS A BETTER OLD/NEW FORM

What is the purpose of this ‘form’? TO CONNECT MIND BODY AND SPIRIT(there are many ways to do this forms being one of them)

Does having more forms make you a better martial artist? NO,LESS IS MORE

Does the length of the form matter? NOT REALLY

What elements are required to name something a form? A BRAIN AND A CREATIVE IMAGINATION and also at least 15 years study and practice of the classics(whatever the classics may be to you)

                           Many respects,,The Willow Sword
8

I agree 100% with NorthernMantis.

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
Forms are like a warehouse of techniques that you can choose from.
That’s exactly how I interpret forms.

9

forms teach principles of your system - footwork, movement, positioning, etc. I’m surprised that hasn’t been mentioned yet.

As far as not being able to have one without the other, I don’t agree there. grappling (with the exception of shuai chiao and judo), boxing, thai boxing… none of those utilize forms, unless you are counting pad drills, shadow fighting, etc as forms. These guys are no less combat effective than anyone else.

10

Re: Lets all argue about forms.

Are they useless?
No

Are they just for show?
No

Can you become proficent by only practicing form?
No but you could become proficient by mainly concentrating on form if you know what form means

Can you become proficent without form at all?
yes, but form will shorten your learning process

Who is form and why is everyone always complaining about him?
Some do practice it as dance and that is completely useless.

Are old forms better than new ones? If so why?
Depends.

What is the purpose of this ‘form’?
To let you discover the principle of your style.

Does having more forms make you a better martial artist?
Not necessarily.

Does the length of the form matter?
No.

What elements are required to name something a form?
No idea. Love to read other ppl’s opinion.

11

watchman are you a wing chun guy ? trying to resist pull into lineage argument? lol
if you are more front weighted then it may be easier to pull you into the arguement. lol

trolling is finished.

I believe one of the main purposes of forms is to teach various combinations of moves, and footwork. However if you try to learn say one hundred forms and have to struggle to even remember them whats the point when you want stuff to be able to come out under pressure with minimal effort.
I like forms but it takes a good amount of time to learn how to do each one correctly, so i am not interested personnaly in having to learn alot of them.

12

My take on it.

Are they useless?

Yes they can be useless, if you dont know how to train with them. People seem to think you learn a form and that’s it you can fight. Forms are a training ‘method’. If you train right then you get something out of them,
otherwise its just a dance.

Are they just for show?

No, forms are as lots of people said;
The database of the system,
The seeds of a system,
The handbook of the system,
The genetics of the system,
Add your own metaphor here.

Can you become proficent by only practicing form?

No, you cannot. Fighting is fighting, its dynamic and open. You get good by
fighting alot, by testing what you know
in a non-stylised and free-form way. A
good system provides a structure in going from learning the core prinicipals
to appyling them in a free for all.

Can you become proficent without form at all?

Yes, you could just practise drills,
two man sensitivity exercises and sparring and be excellent, but you need a partner. On your own, you’d just end up making your own forms anyway :wink:

Who is form and why is everyone always complaining about him?

No idea.

Are old forms better than new ones? If so why?

Yes, and no. Yes because any old form is the compound knowledge of all the previous teachers. You need a good instructor to help unlock the secrets, but alot of thought has gone into creating the form. In theory new forms would be better than old forms as more knowledge has been added, but in practise they have been made up with only a limited understanding of the previous systems.
What is the purpose of this ‘form’?

Does having more forms make you a better martial artist?

No, quality always over quantity.

Does the length of the form matter?

No, its the quality of the form that matters. A good form is highly concentrated, everything is there, it has a structure designed to facilatate
learning the key prinicpals of the system. It also has methods which allows you to develop the attributes required by the system.

What elements are required to name something a form?

Form, is just that a sequence of movements. What makes a good form is the quality of the thought gone into constructing it, the techniques, the combat prinicpals behind it.

Oh well… written an essay, again.

Andrew

13

watchman are you a wing chun guy ?

Guilty as charged. :smiley:

14

Me, I like forms

Are they useless?
NO

Are they just for show?
Sometimes.

Can you become proficent by only practicing form?
Proficient at What? If you mean fighting, then NO. If you mean proficient at doing the form, YES. Two-man sets may complicate that answer.

Can you become proficent without form at all?
See above.

Who is form and why is everyone always complaining about him?
That guy with the wart on his head, i think. Bad breath and that wart is why.

Are old forms better than new ones? If so why?
Older forms are usually ‘mined’ better, if you have a competent teacher. Newer forms are usually found in newer arts or are used to explore a smaller set of techniques within a given style. If its a newer art [choy mok, for example] great. If its just a new form within an older style, no so great, IMHO.

What is the purpose of this ‘form’?
Teaches intention/yi, structure, perseverance, etc. Some conditioning.

Does having more forms make you a better martial artist?
NO. Being a better MA gives you better form to do your forms in. Waitaminnit…

Does the length of the form matter?
NO. Length of time training a form may matter more.

What elements are required to name something a form?
Does it pass down/adhere to the central core of the art? Is it a good tool for teaching? Those are my first questions when approaching a form.

15

Re: Lets all argue about forms.

Originally posted by jon

Who here uses forms and what are there view points on them.

We use forms. Forms are a good way of teacing certainb things and also allow a student to do solo-practice.


Are they useless?

Like anything it depends on how they are used/trained.


Are they just for show?

No, but they can be a nice thing to be watched.


Can you become proficent by only practicing form?

No.


Can you become proficent without form at all?

Yes, but at one stage or another you will need to string techniques/movements together to train flow and transitions and those could be seen as “mini-forms”.


Who is form and why is everyone always complaining about him?

Don’t know answer to this one.


Are old forms better than new ones? If so why?

Not neccesarily, it again depends on how the forms are used and trained.
Personally, I prefer older forms.


What is the purpose of this ‘form’?

To allow the student to train certain aspects of an art and to teach underlying principles and techniques.


Does having more forms make you a better martial artist?

No.


Does the length of the form matter?

It shouldn’t matter.
It depends on what the purpose of the form is.
Personally, I prefer longer forms.


What elements are required to name something a form?

Showcase the styles principles and techniques, show good transitions between techniques.

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Re: Re: Lets all argue about forms.

Originally posted by Vapour
[B]
Can you become proficent without form at all?
yes, but form will shorten your learning process

[/B]

I would disagree with that. You are dividing your time when it could be spent solely drilling and fighting. By dividing your time more, naturally you will need more time. The only exceptions I would see to this are arts like judo or shuai chiao, where the forms are single technique drills that directly translate to what you will fight with.

17

We’re being MUCH too civil!!

He wanted us to argue!

Forms are THE only way to learn!!! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :mad: :mad:

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No, forms suck :smiley:

19

No, your sister sucks.

How’s that for arguing? :smiley:

Forms are Superior

20

She doesn’t suck as well as yo mamma :smiley:

Forms suck even more :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: