Why are forms not 'Alive'?

Fish on! many won’t like this, but my target is the few that do.

by Matt Thornton

Taken from Straight Blast Gym Website

Believe it or not, there are still a few people out there that feel ‘form’, kata, or djuru training have some place for an athlete interested in performance. Why this belief still persists is a mystery, but lets see if we can lay the dead patterns to rest.

The main reason people falsely believe forms have some sort of value is usually listed as “muscle memory”. The idea that a move repeated enough times, becomes smoother, or more accessible during an altercation. Repeating a move over and over again in the air will do absolutely nothing for your reflexes or so called ‘muscle memory’. In fact, repeating a move or series of moves over and over again in the same pattern and sequence will actually be counter productive to your bodies ability to respond quickly.

First, there is no TIMING, without a resisting opponent in front of you. Since there is no timing to be had, your reflexes, or response time against a resisting opponent, will not change, increase, or be helped in the least.

Second, there is no impact, as there is against a heavy bag. So there will be no benefit to your strength, body mechanics, or conditioning. In fact, your body mechanics may become altered in correctly due to the fact that you are not making impact against anything, but merely striking ‘air’.

Thirdly, even when shadowboxing (another comparison morticians like to make when making zombies), you never want to repeat the same series of movements to many times in a row! This is a basic rule all boxing coaches are very familiar with. Go to the well to many times and your opponent becomes ‘wise’ to your arsenal. An example would be a boxer whom always hooked off the jab. After the second attempt he becomes predictable, and easy to set up for a counter attack or knockout. This is why it’s important to make sure your athletes shadowbox fluidly. Watch them to insure that they are NOT repeating the same sequence of movements, in the same order, over and over again.

One basic difference that can be seen between a JKD Concepts Instructor, and a performance orientated Coach, is the difference in patterns. JKD Concepts Instructors, and indeed most ‘traditional’ Martial Artists, are consistently looking to learn, memorize, and repeat more and more patterns. A performance orientated Coach is always looking to break patterns, and movements that are repeated in the same order. A Coach should instead be watching his athlete to insure that when shadowboxing, working the heavybag, or any other piece of equipment, that athlete is not always repeating the same route of movements or combinations. This makes a fighter robotic, stiff, predictable, and creates bad habits. There really is no justification for maintaining the antiquated bad methodology of ‘form’ training.

What about solo training?

That’s a good question and one I get asked allot. If you are blessed to have enough extra time after working your stand up, clinch and ground games against resisting opponents, then you should be concentrating on conditioning. Endurance training, resistance exercises, and stretching would all rank high on the list. Even reading a book would be a much better use of your time the memorizing and repeating a dead pattern. If you are grossly overweight then you should be working that endurance training daily. If you lack a good muscular physique, then you should be training that correctly in order to avoid energy. There is always plenty for us to be working on!

Throw all the patterns and forms away. Stay fluid, and stay ‘ALIVE’.

Article courtesy of Matt Thornton

I disagree. Simply because :

a: while form does help muscle memory, it is only in context to the form.

b: form contains the systems techniques, which when extrpolated from the form and used in a testing context (sparring/fighting), show the basis for a particular fighting style.

c: form practiced over and over again does lead to fluidity and power issuing at the appropriate points in the techniques.

d: form teaches the motion of combat without risking combat.

e: a form workout is as valuable to an athletic person as any aerobic exercise. especially when done continuously when the pattern is well known.

f: forms are 1 (one) part of Chinese Martial arts training (or any martial arts training really)

g: form teaches correct alignment and body mechanics.

I have disagreed with this guy on several of his articles and i agree with him on some. What I know to be true is so often contradicted by him without any real basis other than his whole my shortcuts are the best!

Matt needs to realize a few things before he starts trying to tear down the tried and true methods of defence, medicine and health as are found in asian martial arts.

His biggest complaint should be regarding those who do not propogate the information correctly as opposed to making his signature blanket statements.

:slight_smile:

cheers

It’s a catalogue of movements, not a guarantee that you’ll understand those movements.

However, on behalf of all forms practitioners the world over, I have sent some beef eating kansas red necks to destroy you. Infidel.

KC, luckily for me, I know the habits of rednecks and have laid out a trap.

I’ve dug a tigerpit and placed a 6 pack of Pabst Blue-Ribbon on the top as bait.

You’ll have to do better.

hmmmm, I can agree with some of it however I don’t buy that it doesn’t help build muscle memory. Any action performed over and over again will become second nature, whether there is resistance or not. That said you still have to work on timing and such.

Very clever. However, you failed to account for their wives and daughters. I have told them that your single, and of good breeding stock. You will never know peace again.

BTW, I will say that I dislike systems that create endless forms for no apparent reason. If you can’t fit it in one form, to me, it’s not really one style, it’s multiple styles being taught under on flag. I think that’s sometimes used as a method of control: practitioner X only learned up to form Y from me, so he is unqualified to teach. Even though he was one of my best fighters. And he knew his stuff really well. But he’s unqualified. Did I mention I’ve got copyrights on supposedly traditional forms?:rolleyes:

a) true. much like one memorizes a dance routine.
b) a pre arranged fighting style is again, just a stylized dance.
c) no they don’t. he just told you why.
d) :smiley: only you would make “lack of combat” a plus for a martial art.
e) agreed. its an anaerobic dance. I recommend contemporary wushu for a real workout in flexibility and workout.
f) the largest part in which valuable time is spent.
g) so will good coaching and “form” of movement. forms don’t have the market cornered on this.

Good luck with your dancing
:wink:

note I do not totally agree with the article either.

I agree with Kung Lek.

Additionally, forms teach transitions and applications. Ours teach us to flow from one technique to another and to rearrange moves within techniques.

Forms were not meant to be memorized and performed. They should be broken down, tore apart, examined and changed. Many moves in forms have multiple uses with only slight modifications. This is true in most styles I’ve seen. I study American Kenpo and Tai Chi Chuan and it is certainly the case there. But I’ve seen it in TKD, PMAs, and Aiki(Chin Na).

I’d say if your forms are dead it is because you never gave them life.

Not only does the author not have any experience with the topic, but he is fundamentally hypocritical: even within this very article he recommends non-alive training methods, while attack formwork on the sole basis of being non-alive.

What else is there to say?

forms teach transitions and applications.

I believe forms are excellent sources of showing transitions, but horrible at showing applications.

The following interview with Matt Thornton was conducted September 8th 1999 by Derrick Cox for use in an upcoming video series:

Matt. . .you talk alot about “Aliveness” this seems to be your main theme or point whenever you are teaching. It was also the main theme of your last video series. Why do you place so much emphasis on this point as opposed to others?

Aliveness is everything. If an athlete grasps the principle and truly understands what I mean by it. . then they can never be bull****ted again (laughs) thats why I emphasize it so much. I am also constantly being asked…whats better… this or that. . this style or that style…why don’t you do this drill anymore…why do you say this doesn’t work… The answer to all those questions is ALIVENESS…you see…so once they grasp what that means then about one thousand and one of their questions are answered for them. It’s everything.

Do you think most people get it… do they understand aliveness?
Depends…most combat athletes get it right away… in fact to them it would be common sense…by combat athletes I mean Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, wrestlers, boxers, etc…people who train for real, against real resistance and real opponents. Most “martial artists” don’t have a clue what it means. They think they know…they think “well what we do is for the street, not sport! Of course we are training with aliveness”. But then you see what they are doing and its all dead patterns, flash, one and two step sparring, reference points, and nonsense. In short, its all dead.

What about other JKD people… don’t they understand the principle, seems like they above all others would “get it”?
JKD people are some of the worst! (laughs) I have seen some articles and things on the internet where they discuss the word aliveness and its laughable…big words, pseudo philosophy, didactic speech…but you can tell right away that the simple truth of it is lost on them. Look…all you have to do to see if someone understands aliveness is watch them train. 99% of the JKD people I run into…be they “concepts” or “original” guys, are still doing one dead pattern after another. No footwork, no timing, and always, always, always, patterns. NO…I know of only a few JKD people who really grasp what aliveness is all about.

I am still confused… give me an example of where a JKD person might think what they are doing is alive but its not.
Alright…lets take Jun Fan guys. Most still practice endless hours of reference point trapping. They dissect their “entries” against a static man who is standing with his lead arm in one or another “fixed” position. Thats about as dead as it gets. So many JKD people dog traditional martial artists like Karate and Kung Fu guys… but then you watch their class and they are teaching people out of a high outside reference point! Its nonsense.

Well I understand what you are saying about the reference points… but what about someone who says that those are just training methods… that they are meant to teach options and reflexes to beginners… which will eventually lead them into a more alive energy drill such as chi sao?
Consider their assumptions. First off is the assumption that you need to begin a brand new student out with a dead pattern. Thats a false assumption. Its not necessary! You can train people with aliveness on day one…their is no need to begin with planted feet…fixed positions, and contrived resistance. Second is the assumption that you COULD develop reflexes using a dead pattern…you cannot…train with a dead pattern and get a dead response… their are no reflexes to be had there…no resistance…nothing. Its a waste of time. Third…you said leading into an energy drill such as chi-sao…which essentially means going from one dead pattern to another. Most people who practice chi-sao do it with planted feet… no footwork…or contrived silly footwork…footwork thats rehearsed…its a pattern! Nobody fights like that! No fight on planet earth will ever resemble a chi sao match…in a real fight guys grab you…they grab for your head… they punch you…and not with perfect “centerline” punches either, but with giant Tank Abbot “I am gonna knock your friggin head off” punches…they tackle…and hug…
and knee…thats a fight…a pigeon toed dead pattern wont help you much there.

Well personally I know some JKD concepts people who use these drills only as shells… to add things like you mentioned… knees, elbows…as their student progresses. Don’t you think that would be a valid training method?
Perhaps…but certainly not the most efficient, realistic, or helpful training method. Why do you need the pattern? I don’t understand the reason for it. Why not just fight for control of the body while putting in punches, knees, elbows…like a Greco Roman wrestlers pummeling drill…or Muay Thai’s neck control drill…you dont say “alright. . .we are going to fight for control of the neck… on every 3 and one half rotations through this cycle I am going to insert an elbow…ok, GO.” That would be silly…there is no TIMING there. You see fights… real fights…are all about conditioning, and timing. No…instead you simply wrestle for control of that neck…and as you go you randomly put in your strike…no pattern…you FIND the place to put it in out of that mess that is real resistance. Thats Alive. I simply do not see the need for a pattern. Even a raw beginner…on day one…he can drill without the pattern and begin to develop real attributes, right away, without getting hurt. If an Instructor says he needs those patterns for beginners so they don’t hurt each other, then he is just ignorant about coaching athletes. And you know what… its probably not his fault…he was trained that way and he is just repeating. Thats what most humans do. You don’t need patterns… and the JKD/Kali & Original JKD world are full of them.

Why? What you are saying seems like common sense… so why is it so prevalent, why would they do it that way for generations… if, as you say its “nonsense”?
I don’t know? Who knows. Why did it take a well publicized no hold barred fight, an open challenge, and countless… countless challenge matches by a family from Brazil to teach people the obvious… that fights often hit the ground, and you better know your **** down there when it does? Think about it… I have to give them all the credit in the world… before the Gracies came to our Country everybody just said… “ah, you don’t want to be on the ground…you just hit him when he comes in, you just boink him in the eyes, or kick his balls… or bite him… they cant take me down”. Why did it take the advent of full contact kickboxing in the late 60’s and early 70’s to show people that the best place to put their hands was near their face and not on their hip? People become enamored with the mystery that surrounds the Asian martial arts… people are often gullible… they so badly want to believe that their is some 75 year old 110lb Chinese master who can throw people without touching them… or administer a death touch… whatever… .it feeds the fantasies they have about beating up 5 football players at once in a parking lot in front of their girlfriend. Its silly. Its a fantasy… but they seem to need it… as far as JKD goes. I think long ago a decision was made somewhere that looking “cool” being able to do 75 knife disarms… or some flashy compound trapping with crisp, snappy sounds passed for having “good form”. And the pursuit of that “good form” and knowledge of endless variations from multiple dead patterns… took precedence over the pursuit of what it is truly all about… increasing PERFORMANCE. But… I am just guessing… Who cares anyway… its what YOU can do… and how YOU train that counts…let the rest of the world do whatever they want.

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]forms teach transitions and applications.

I believe forms are excellent sources of showing transitions, but horrible at showing applications. [/B]

ST00,

My point is that they don’t just show you anything. You have to dig out the principles and applications. Don’t just memorize it, play with it. Tweak it. Break it down and work the moves with a partner. Even the transitions are wasted if you only learn the one application in the form.

Bah to each their own. I think forms are VERY necessary. I dont need to explain why cuz I know their benefit and those who arent on the same page wouldn’t relate or understand anyways. Most who post already have their mind made up and arent seeking to learn anything. They just like to throw general statements out because… sometimes this forum is boring without a good argument or debate.

Does anyone else find that last post incredibly ironic?

:stuck_out_tongue:

I dont need to explain why cuz I know their benefit and those who arent on the same page wouldn’t relate or understand anyways. Most who post already have their mind made up and arent seeking to learn anything.

and this forum is boring without a good debate, what better debate than trying to convince kungfu’ers to see the light..

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]The following interview with Matt Thornton was conducted September 8th 1999 by Derrick Cox for use in an upcoming video series:

‘It’s the artist, not the art.’[/B]

I took the liberty of paraphrasing that entire interveiw. That is pretty much what I got out of it.

Some artists are willing to dig out the principles and applications that make an art alive, some are not. Some artists are willing to work and develope their art, some go through the motions. Some are willing to pad up and test their understanding and skills with contact, others prefer the safety of tag games. But nothing in there provides evidence that forms are useless.

Dead forms are useless. Therefore, you should bring your forms to life.

If your forms are horrible for teaching application, someone is teaching you cr@p.

It’s the artist, not the art.

If the art holds back the artist then he won’t grow to his potential.

Find an instructor that will help you bring the art to life- different school. You don’t have to throw the baby (art) out with the bathwater.

Edit: I still think it is more likely the fault of the practitioner than the art or the instructor. But I acknowlege that a dead instructor cannot teach a living art. I don’t agree that all arts not geared for the ring are dead, and certainly they aren’t dead just because they teach forms.

“aliveness” = “chi” for MMAers.

No one trains all with aliveness. Not boxers, not muay thai-ists, not wrestlers. It’s a neat idea to try to vindicate what you do to others though.

I guess I am going to be the bad guy.

I agree with some of the philosophy behind Matt Thornton’s viewpoints, I also disagree with other aspects of it, for one it seems very sport focused to me in nature, though there is nothing wrong with that as those methods have been proven to carry great merit.

To me the philosophy of training should mean more than just technique. It should be about the end results.

For adrenaline stress training RMCAT has a website and from what I hear a highly rated program. The concept is easy enough to steal for any group of joe’s.