Why are forms not 'Alive'?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Somewhat onto a tangent here, but one thing that makes me kind of nervous for the future of kung fu is that so many of its practitioners cannot cope with the idea that some things are not as effective as others.

i.e. every martial theory is the best martial theory, any failure is on the part of practitioners.

I don’t think this is a good trend. I think the TMA vs. MMA argument ends here often, and so that’s where the thinking for many traditionalists ends.

What’s ironic is that these same people often think their art is the best.:smiley:

I just don’t see this to be so. Some things are ineffective. I’m not gonna make a list on the forums, but the fact is, some techniques and approaches are less effective at fighting than others.

It reminds me of art. There are artists who try to make all sorts of chaotic looking stuff, but are incapable of drawing reality. Then there’s people like picasso, who start by learning how to draw reality, THEN turn it on its ear. The same with good kung fu fighters. They understand fighting, then the approach of their style can be placed in a context.

My goal is to make my art everything it can be. I refuse to blindly assume that the ones who had it before me were flawless people, and that never, ever, could a flaw have been introduced. I’ve seen plenty of practitioners perform flawed techniques. I have no reason to believe this is a new phenomenon.

I mentioned this somewhere else, but just about every one of the old kung fu flicks has some skinny dude who is telling people he’s the greatest teacher, has some super duper method, but his character is actually just a peddler or something like that. Given that chinese floklore has such characters, isn’t it safe to assume that some fake kung fu got mixed in the overall process that brought kung fu to us today? Or, at least, to safeguard against such a thing by CRITICALLY examining your techniques once you’ve come to understand them?

To illustrate, is there anyone on here that is unaware of chinese mores against rolling around on the ground? Anyone? Well, do you also believe that you can prevent ending up fighting on the ground WITHOUT FAIL, 100% OF THE TIME? If not, then don’t you think the old masters might not have addressed the issue sufficiently in many styles?

And losttrack, before you decide whose mind is made up, look at your own view. My view on this has changed drastically in the last two years. That is not a strong sign of rigid thinking. Has yours ever changed at all?

The fact is, forms are cool, I like them to an extent, but I think people need to be a little less touchy about their sacred cows.

22

Forms impress chicks…

They also give you something to do when you’re too old to fight. :smiley:

Actually, forms are a unique challenge and are part of CMA. If you don’t do forms, you’re not doing CMA.

They are not a substitute for fighting or sparring and that’s where I think all of the misinterpretations come from. Too many people think that doing forms is going to make them a superior fighter. They won’t. But they do have a certain elegance and grace that will help you in a fight if you develop it through practicing the forms. Forms are about patience, personal reflection, and perfection of movement. In a way, I guess that the best description is that they are a moving meditation. I don’t agree with the thought that doing forms will hurt your fighting ability. That’s just dumb thinking. It would be like saying practicing ballet is disruptive to bowling efficiency.

In summary:
Forms are part of CMA. Practicing them helps develop positive attributes that you can carry over into fighting. They are not a substitute for fighting.

23

If truth is ironic then it cannot be helped. Notice I didn’t mention anyone in particular when I said that people’s minds may be closed yet people chimed in defensively… hmmm. I’ll let that speak for itself. As far as my own openmindedness, only I can look into myself and see how I have changed. I believe that goes for anyone else reading this post as well… and if my comments act as a catalyst then… woohoo? I just have to wonder what motivates a post like this… Granted there may be some useful into gleaned from this discussion but it seems this is another debate that involves soo many variables that anything states is mere speculation/opinion. So if this was posted in the spirit of “how have forms influenced your training?” then good attitude. If it was posted as a detraction, then… pffft.

24

MightyB

“If you don’t do forms, you’re not doing CMA.”

Not true. There are styles that do not have forms, and I’ve heard from a number of people that many old tai chi teachers taught the movements separately, and only bothered with the form with those who wanted the catalogue of moves for teaching people.

However, I agree with the rest.

25

I’ll state up front that these days alot of my training is kata and heavy bag. It’s not by choice.

I think forms as a catalogue of a styles techniques is outdated. It’s the 21st century for Pete’s sake and we have technology that let’s us see a technique performed in 360 degree. We have the printing press and Barnes and Noble, not to mention the internet for storing this information. I can think of many uses for kata but that isn’t one of them anymore.

Also pulling moves out of kata takes more work than watching a video by a Gracie (pick one), Jim West or Vlad Vasiliev and the return is debatable.

Other than that Thorton makes some good points, though I like Scott Sonnons delivery better.

BTW, Does Thorton ever give a definition of “Aliveness”?

26

st00-

on point c).
there is only proof that this is what occurs with practice, particulalry of motion. To assume or surmise otherwise is simply incorrect. Provide an argument where improvement does not come with repitition.

on point d).
well why don’t you just go and run out and beat the hell out of a teenager? Shouldn’t he learn by taking a beating? Like everyone should learn, just beat the hell out of them and see if they figured out how you did that. Dude, practicing combat, without actually being in combat so you are prepared for combat is exactly what martial arts are all about. yeesh!

on point e).
really? you would recommend wushu? so you practice wushu and you know how good or not good it is enough to state that you recommend it to those seeking aerobic exercise? I’m being sarcastic here btw.

on point f).
I dunno where you went to cma school, but that is not true of the school i attended. nor of the kungfu i practice now.

on point g). Is that how you see it? a cornered market? Whatever.
all that is old becomes new again. The human body has been virtually the same as it has been since the codification of combat tactics. training equipment isn’t as crude as it once was, but to sell the older generation short on h2h combat skills is myopic. You’ve never had to fight with only steel and your wits. IN fact most military guys likely haven’t seen the enemy.

So why do any of it? Why bother with ufc, sparring, san shou, any of it? You think there is one better than another because it is different?

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. There are no shortcuts. And about a million more cliches worked into the english language because they are truisms.

The truth is that people who train hard on a disciplined path will succeed in that path.

cheers

27

Losttrack, stop being a nincompoop. You got all huffy because someone dared question forms, then didn’t substantiate a thing you said, then made accusations about other people being stubborn. You added nothing to the discussion except a bout of PMS, and utterly failed to make a single positive point about forms, which other members have done very well. Basically, you got upset because you felt your sacred cow was under attack. pfft.:rolleyes:

28

Forms are by no means necessary but I do think they can help. I look at them as akin to shadow boxing really. They don’t have to be done in slow motion obviously. It just seems that the guy is too much on one side without really understanding the issue. If all you do is forms, then of course you will be missing quite a bit and probably won’t be able to apply technique very well, but I definitely don’t think it hurts to use them, especially for individual practice when you do not have a partner. They can definitely be a useful tool.

Some things I learned and benefitted from doing forms - Body unity, I began to learn how to unite my body behind every action. This in turn helped my co-ordination, etc.
Forward intent, doing some of my old forms slowly helped me to deveolpe solid, sturdy forward intent.

29

Rogue,
That forms aren’t just about cataloguing techniques now does not change the fact that that was the role they served primarily. Now that they don’t do that, what martial role do they serve, since pracititoners don’t use the whole catalogue in fighting, but more their core moves? Thus, all the important transitions and such are better served by practicing short combos(which I’m differentiating from forms for this discussion, as we’re really talking about long forms here), and not by doing a bunch of moves that you aren’t going to use.

BTW, your average martial artist does not have the ability to capture forms in 3D. You merely have the advantage of practicing a very common form. Some of us only have books with line drawings and mandarin notes to work off of, if even that. My style would be dead without the form.

30

KC Elbows: Lol I can see your are trying to draw me into some silly verbal bout. lol I won’t accomodate you. My post involved reason. You post is 90% invective. So regardless of what you may say, you still havent disputed anything my post involved.

31

Good post, red5. However, couldn’t you learn body unity by doing the moves separately? Or doing them in sparring?

In my opinion, forms are cool, they are good solo practice in, as red5 stated, body unity, but they can also be a trap, especially when you are doing a lot of different forms. Now, if you just like doing different forms, that’s cool, but I’m sorry, no one is doing 50 forms and fighting 50 different ways, odds are they’ve got one core style, one or two others they’re competent in, and the rest is for the fun of it/meditation of it/exercise of it, so somewhere along the line, either you are drawing the line and saying ‘this is my fighting form(s)’, or you have to admit that you’re not necessarily doing it for martial reasons at all, which is okay too.

And those who use forms as a way to keep good people from teaching because they don’t have the ultimate brand X form are dishonest, and opportunistic, and, unfortunately, far too common in the US.

So, few forms good(IMO), many forms bad for fighting(IMO) but okay for fun, exercise, or meditation(IMO).

32

Originally posted by Losttrak
KC Elbows: Lol I can see your are trying to draw me into some silly verbal bout. lol I won’t accomodate you. My post involved reason. You post is 90% invective. So regardless of what you may say, you still havent disputed anything my post involved.

Sorry, I didn’t realize I was dealing with the voice of reason here. Beg your pardon sir. Care to share that reason with the rest of us, or would that be too reasonable?

33

silence as KC Elbows continues to prove Losttrak’s point

34

Originally posted by Losttrak
silence as KC Elbows continues to prove Losttrak’s point

well, i suppose that beats phoning up your girlfriend from beijing with all the martial artists in her family and asking her to back you up on your point. eh, kip up?

stuart b.

35

I don’t think so. maybe if you were gifted you could anyway but look at it this way. I did WC for 3 years and improved at a normal rate. I picked up Chen Taichi on a recommendation, and I made huge leaps in skill and power delivery over about 6 months to a year. Over that same time period I became more co-ordinated and so had to attribute my increasing skill and power to bette rbody unity.

I guess what I should say KC is that you probably can get body unity from doing single motions over and over again, but I think what forms do is also concentrate on this, through not only the moves but the smooth transitions.

I just hope I am clear in saying that although I think they can be useful, they aren’t necessary really, and you can get fighting skill without them.

36

Losttrak,
Have a nice day, good practice to you, etc.

37

apoweyn:

lol I can admit when I am wrong. =) When it comes to determining if it had some origin from an actual Chinese term there could be no more credible source (that I had access to…).

KC Elbows: Same to you.

38

Red5,
I think in tai chi, push hands was when the individual moves were linked, but it is true that, by yourself, working the form can be good that way. I’ve had the same experience from the chi kung in my system that you did with the chen form. Essentially, our whole form is in the chi kung exercises, though the form does take the chi kung some unexpected directions.

Ap,
You are a tribute to the symbiote-collective-gestalt.

39

except the dictionary. :slight_smile:

look, i haven’t got anything against you personally. but you have this knack for righteous indignation. this conversation has been relatively civil. no reason why it can’t stay that way.

40

Kip Up is in the dictionary?!?!? looks at Webster Dictionary site Doh.. dont see it. =)