Deconstructing Kung Fu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Some other threads got me to thinking about this -

Prior to 1880, JuJitsu was just a collection of favorite techniques practiced by thugs (described this way by Kano himself - you look up the articles). It was associated with criminals and the Yakuza and really wasn’t something that a civilized person would do. He changed all that by finding a single unifying principle “ju” and then codified the main body of techniques and Kata. He took out the most lethal moves and yada yada yada… Olympic sport.

I say we reverse engineer TCMA starting with analyzing forms.

My theory is that a TCMA style was a collection of favorite dirty tricks. Look at any form. Even if you perfect the whole form, out of that form of say some 50 techniques, you’ll probably only find 3 or 4 that are personally applicable to you. Those would be your “go to” techniques. If you perfect those techniques against a living opponent, I think you’ll find your true martial ability growing in leaps and bounds.

Thoughts and discussion.

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What sux, is that there are way too many lines, where this is the only way to drive applications from your forms.

Thankfll there are still lineages who teach these uses.

Fight first, forms later. That is the old way.

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[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;1159013]
Fight first, forms later. That is the old way.[/QUOTE]

Good point. When my teacher described the creation of forms, he said that the old masters would beat the crap out of each other and then try to analyze what they did. They’d then take their favorites and put those into a sequence for preservation and transmission. I think this is important to keep in mind.

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One of the main problems is not so much that forms are taught and practiced, it is when they are taught as the main course of a Kung Fu program. Basics should be taught above all, the four elements of chinese martial arts. Da (Punches, elbows, upper body striking) Ti (Kicks, knees, lower body striking Shuai (Throws, clinch technique) Na (Seizing, trappling, submissions).

Also, blocking, parrying, trapping, and sticky hand technique should be taught, along with bag work, mitt work, two person drills, and most importantly freestyle sparring and grappling.

You Know Who said it best on here once, teach your students how to fight first. Then, they have their whole lives to learn and do forms.

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1159017]One of the main problems is not so much that forms are taught and practiced, it is when they are taught as the main course of a Kung Fu program. Basics should be taught above all, the four elements of chinese martial arts. Da (Punches, elbows, upper body striking) Ti (Kicks, knees, lower body striking Shuai (Throws, clinch technique) Na (Seizing, trappling, submissions).

Also, blocking, parrying, trapping, and sticky hand technique should be taught, along with bag work, mitt work, two person drills, and most importantly freestyle sparring and grappling.

You Know Who said it best on here once, teach your students how to fight first. Then, they have their whole lives to learn and do forms.[/QUOTE]

but to me the forms give insight into the “dirty tricks” of a style. I agree that you shouldn’t overemphasize their importance, but neither should they be too de-emphasized. Otherwise you get no variance or “style” between fighting arts. The trick is finding the balance in how to approach forms practice. Learn it, analyze, apply. But where do you start? Do you start with a kickboxing / san da approach and then introduce style through form? IDK…

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1159020]but to me the forms give insight into the “dirty tricks” of a style. I agree that you shouldn’t overemphasize their importance, but neither should they be too de-emphasized. Otherwise you get no variance or “style” between fighting arts. The trick is finding the balance in how to approach forms practice. Learn it, analyze, apply. But where do you start? Do you start with a kickboxing / san da approach and then introduce style through form? IDK…[/QUOTE]

This could be one approach, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that if the instructor chooses to go this route. But I still believe a simple emphasis on basics is where you start at. It’s funny because everyone likes to distinguish kickboxing/Sanda training and Kung Fu training, when to me they are one and the same.

Kung Fu should involve doing bag work, mitts, shield kicks, along with sparring with equipment so that the students can learn to give and take shots in a safe manner. All combat sports do this, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA, ect. I fail to see the distinction and quite honestly I feel Kung Fu practioners think it is some kind of sin to spar like a kickboxer, when in truth, that is what you are going to look like with equipment on.

You can also spar with fingerless gloves which will enable you to do open hand strikes such as palms, ridgehands, tiger claws, and several other strikes found in Kung Fu that cannot be done with the use of boxing gloves. This is why I have my students spar both ways, one to develop power and realism, the other to refine technique.

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Here is a video of two of my students sparring recently. Both these young ladies have about six months training with me, no previous experience. The advantage to having equipment is that they can practice at a harder contact level which is essential for devlopment. I also have them spar as I said with fingerless MMA gloves for devloping open hand striking and trappling/sticky hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFpFshHaBk4&list=UUwVQdvTSCvWTxzPNdacy4aw&index=2&feature=plcp

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1159011]Some other threads got me to thinking about this -

I say we reverse engineer TCMA starting with analyzing forms.

My theory is that a TCMA style was a collection of favorite dirty tricks. Look at any form. Even if you perfect the whole form, out of that form of say some 50 techniques, you’ll probably only find 3 or 4 that are personally applicable to you. Those would be your “go to” techniques. If you perfect those techniques against a living opponent, I think you’ll find your true martial ability growing in leaps and bounds. [/QUOTE]

I think you are exactly on the right track MightyB.

Many people look at a form and see a ROLO-Deck (index cards) of techniques that are possible. But there is no way in hell that they can “Sift though” all those techniques, pick one and then apply it in the same time as a punch for example.

The more experienced you are… the more you realize that you only need a few entries and a few counters in the begining. Then if you stick with it long enough, the other methods open themselves up to you as you mature.

I go further and break them down into primary, secondary and so forth type. Everyone has thier OWN WAY…or way of NO WAY, haha.

But anyway, the only thing people believe nowawdays is if you make a YouTube and prove it… short of actually meeting up and touching hands ie.

Keep on keepin’ on man,
“O”

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1159020] But where do you start? Do you start with a kickboxing / san da approach and then introduce style through form? IDK…[/QUOTE]

Aside from Judo, you do mantis, right?
Is mantis really mantis without ng-lou-choy or dil sau?
Maybe, maybe not, it’s debatable but it might be a tough argument.

Breaking down dil sau (the “ng” in “ng-lou-choy” if I’m not mistaken) - what is it?
Typically it’s intercepting, redirecting, and hooking an incoming, straight-line attack.
In other words, it’s a counter.

In order to counter, you need to be provided an input.
In order to learn proper countering, you need to have someone providing you proper input.
Given this era and your location, what’s going to be the most common (and proficient), straight line fist attack?..Probably a boxing jab and/or cross (and by extension: mma, sanshou, muay thai, etc because they train it).
At the very least you’ll want to learn how to properly execute that technique so your partner can counter it realistically.

There also may need to be some re-tooling in order to make it work.
Bareknuckle styles tend to build attacks and counters based off the body as a target; head shots weren’t quite as common as since the advent of gloves - so you’ll probably have to raise it to cover the head.
Plus, you’re probably going to want to figure out how to do it with gloves for safety reasons and if you have any aspirations at the sport side of things.
Don’t even get me started on the tweaking the technique for committed vs non-committed attacks (jabs vs crosses)…

How far do you take it then?
Do you train basic boxing/sanshou/muaythai/mma in its entirety first and then add your flavor?
Do you borrow the offense from the common sport stuff and teach your own defense from the get go?

Those questions are where it all gets difficult.
Your end product may look significantly different than your form and then you have the wonderful prospect of being accused of doing “sloppy kickboxing” by someone who never even bothered to put in the effort to retool their stuff for modern scenarios.

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1159026]Here is a video of two of my students sparring recently. [/QUOTE]

Chick with black gloves fights like a dude. :slight_smile:
Kept thinking in the back of my head - “turn your hips over on those kicks!”, but I understand that might not be your style.
Good clip.

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[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1159031]Aside from Judo, you do mantis, right?
Is mantis really mantis without ng-lou-choy or dil sau?
Maybe, maybe not, it’s debatable but it might be a tough argument.

Breaking down dil sau (the “ng” in “ng-lou-choy” if I’m not mistaken) - what is it?
Typically it’s intercepting, redirecting, and hooking an incoming, straight-line attack.
In other words, it’s a counter.

[/QUOTE]

I think ou lou choy is the defining “dirty trick” of mantis.

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1159033]I think ou lou choy is the defining “dirty trick” of mantis.[/QUOTE]

That’s pretty much what I’m talking about :slight_smile:
The next step would be putting some gloves on and having him feed proper jabs/crosses at realistic speed while the receiver gets to work on that.

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Slightly off topic

[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1159034]That’s pretty much what I’m talking about :slight_smile:
The next step would be putting some gloves on and having him feed proper jabs/crosses at realistic speed while the receiver gets to work on that.[/QUOTE]

That’s Dave - he’s not a striker at all, and has no interest - just a grappler, but he was willing to pose as one for the camera. :smiley:

One of my biggest problems and always has been is finding sparring partners (even in Judo). That’s the one thing I do like about BJJ - no shortage there. That’s where I go when I’m getting ready for competition.

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[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1159034]That’s pretty much what I’m talking about :slight_smile:
The next step would be putting some gloves on and having him feed proper jabs/crosses at realistic speed while the receiver gets to work on that.[/QUOTE]

Ou lou choy does not have to be in response to an attack. You can initiate your own attack with it.

Don’t use it against a jab.

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[QUOTE=-N-;1159042]Ou lou choy does not have to be in response to an attack. You can initiate your own attack with it.

Don’t use it against a jab.[/QUOTE]

Admittedly, I’m not expert with mantis, just had some experience with it.
I’m really curious to learn how ou lou choy can be used to lead off an attack.
In B’s video, he had a cool example of leading off with a jab and then when the other guy parries, flowing into the ou-lou-choy as soon as contact is made.

As far as defending a jab - yeah, a full ou-lou-choy would probably unrealistic; but you could probably get away with a modified dil sau to use as a parry.

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[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1159045]I’m really curious to learn how ou lou choy can be used to lead off an attack.[/QUOTE]

Just explode in and apply ou lou choy against is lead guard hand.

[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1159045]As far as defending a jab - yeah, a full ou-lou-choy would probably unrealistic; but you could probably get away with a modified dil sau to use as a parry.[/QUOTE]

Not worth trying to catch a real jab with a dil sau. Might get away with it if theguy’s jab is lazy.

Easier to slip and drop low for a body shot with the lead hand. Use the back hand for parry. In Mantis, that would bo choy steal heart punch. Boxers do basically the same thing.

Follow up from there is up to you. One classic one would be to to go back up with lead uppercut, follow with lead hook. Back hand is using fung(seal) to assist the followups.

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1159037]One of my biggest problems and always has been is finding sparring partners (even in Judo). That’s the one thing I do like about BJJ - no shortage there. That’s where I go when I’m getting ready for competition.[/QUOTE]

In striking arts, it’s even more difficult to find good partners.
Can’t tell you how many sparring sessions have devolved into this.
Been yelled at for even stalking like Floyd Sr in that clip.

In Baltimore, I don’t think I realized how good I had it - used to complain because there weren’t many guys my own size to work with.
But, for larger guys, that’s probably always going to be the case, and the guys I did get to work with at Baltimore Sanshou were really great - so I’ve learned to be more appreciative.

I don’t have the option like you do to go to a mma gym for good partners - because most mma gyms have cr@p for striking and locally, they all spar like meatheads (see the vid above).

Boxing gyms can be cool if you take it slow and get to know the trainers for a while (weeks) before ever asking to spar. Still gotta watch out for the occasional nutbag who starts dropping elbows when he can’t hit you with his punches.

I like my muay thai gym, but at the moment there’s nobody I really enjoy sparring with. Even the one guy that’s good near my weight class still takes things really personally, has a worse temper than I do, hits like a mac truck, and spars with 6 year old cheap everlast gloves with no paint on the knuckles and probably even less padding.

Maybe I’m in the wrong sport; but if I’m going to put my body through an actual fight, I at least want to get some credit for it (either an amateur record or money).

I’m always on the lookout for good training partners. I’m trying to kick off some of those relationships by offering to hold pads for anybody that comes along - either help the nice guys get to a decent level, or help the decent guys to look at it as a team instead of in-gym competition.

Taking my ego out of it, volunteering to “lose” the sparring session, and being quick to be verbal about slowing it down if it gets a little intense has helped me out so far.

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[QUOTE=-N-;1159052]Just explode in and apply ou lou choy against is lead guard hand.

…

Not worth trying to catch a real jab with a dil sau. Might get away with it if theguy’s jab is lazy.

Easier to slip and drop low for a body shot with the lead hand. Use the back hand for parry. In Mantis, that would bo choy steal heart punch. Boxers do basically the same thing.

Follow up from there is up to you. One classic one would be to to go back up with lead uppercut, follow with lead hook. Back hand is using fung(seal) to assist the followups.[/QUOTE]

Great info, thanks!

I agree, not worth catching a jab.

I was taught dil sau as a “mirror block” - from center line to outer, using the thumb side of the forearm, palm facing up; before it turns over with the hooking motion. That “mirror block” part might work as a parry, especially if it’s opposite stance (orthodox vs southpaw).

I do like the idea of slipping and going to the body. My bread and butter is parrying the jab with my lead (southpaw vs orthodox) and firing the jab over the top with the same hand - you see it in a lot of forms from a lot of styles as a bunch of different expressions.

My muay thai coach likes to do a follow up combo like the one you described, adding a cross at the end.

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[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1159032]Chick with black gloves fights like a dude. :slight_smile:
Kept thinking in the back of my head - “turn your hips over on those kicks!”, but I understand that might not be your style.
Good clip.[/QUOTE]

Actually turning the hips over is very much my style and they admittedly need work on this for their kicks. Yes, the girl with black gloves does hit and fight like a guy!!