When&Why did kung fu begin to emphasize forms so much?
AFAIK.
Forms were always a mainstream of CMA.
In my style it is said to do the forms 10 times every day for 3 yrs (10.000times) in order build a good foundation.
It is even emphasized in our classics that go back a long time.
The forms are the important parts, suplemental training like Chan Si Jing and similar are just that.
Cheers.
Forms
Forms, or the recent emphasis on forms, has to be a relatively recent development, historically.
I admire schools that emphasize Ji Ben Gong Fa, or training the basics and working out as well as teaching forms, more than those that do little more than practice forms.
not all schools focus on form to the exclusion of real world fighting ability. I think it all goes back to the almighty dollar. It’s easier to retain students if you put emphasis on forms over fighting.
They are an efficient method of learning the large amonut of techniques that cover the body of a system.
With progressive reiteration of techniques as the more advanced forms are learned.
cheers
Re: Forms
Originally posted by carly
Forms, or the recent emphasis on forms, has to be a relatively recent development, historically.
I am not sure about recent history. but Chen TJQ had Forms about 300yrs ago and the same emphasis is laid on them as well as the other aspects of training, AFAIK.
Gotta differ with you on this one. Just because they existed doesn’t mean they were that central. Forms were developed primarily as a method of transmitting a style. The MOST traditional teachers today in China don’t emphasis forms much. Taiji meing perhaps the example that proves the rule. Even with Taiji, forms training would have only been maybee a third of the time spend originally.
My take on it, in addition to the transmission aspect is that they are good consise demonstrations of different styles. If asked to “show me a little BAJI!”, I can do xiaobaji and you can see what BAJI! is about.
omarthefish.
Glad that you know how I am taught Chen TJQ.
And that you know better than my Sifu who is a lineage holder.
Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]They are an efficient method of learning the large amonut of techniques that cover the body of a system.
With progressive reiteration of techniques as the more advanced forms are learned.
cheers [/B]
Yeah, that’s a definite plus. I find with bjj that I don’t forget techniques - we train them so much they are ingrained farily well, but we work techniques in series also. It’s VERY easy to forget those. That’s not really aa bad thing, as you learn to flow naturally from one thing to the next, but there are so many different options you can flow to, it’s near impossible to remember them all.
Hi Carly,
Do you mean recently, or “in the beginning?” (let there be light and kung fu forms!)?
You might want to take a look at “The Sword Polisher’s _______”, I don’t remember the last word to the title and I don’t have the book with me, nor do I remember the name of the author (a triple threat of ignorance, I’m afraid!). But if you take a look at amazon.com and look for “sword polisher” you’ll probably find it quick. The author talks quite a bit about kung fu origins, as well as forms origins/use. A very awesome book, in my opinion! He also talks about the direction forms are taking, and gives his opinion of the “deadly kung fu” style where people just practice forms all day.
That’s the “Sword Polisher’s Record” by Adam Hsu, one of my favorite books on kung fu.
Kung fu focuses on the fighting techniques/principles. Although many people seem to think of forms as a way to train certain principles, I think the primary reason for forms is even more fundamental.
In the time before paper and other ways to record info were commonly available, people had to come up with some way to remember all the fighting drills/techniques in their style. A form is a physical poem. It is a memory device. It is much easier to remember one form with several dozen techniques, than to remember several dozen individual drills.
Today, some MMA guy can just burn his drills on a cd, and keep a print out on a clip board next to him while working out…but I personally think a form is a cooler and more stylish way to remember all those drills! You learn the form properly, and the next obvious step is to break it down into individual segments and train them as individual drills, because that’s the point in the first place. People love to assign all kind of “magic” to forms, but to me the most important way to think of them is to see them as a way to memorize several different drills!
Unfortunately, many MA today teach forms, and then do drills with techniques that don’t quite mesh with their forms, it’s like two different styles cause they don’t understand what the forms are for in the first place. So, if your instructor doesn’t emphasize breaking down forms into drills and concentrating on those, (once the form is learned properly, of course) then you should get a new instructor.
Originally posted by stormmountain
[B]
Kung fu focuses on the fighting techniques/principles. Although many people seem to think of forms as a way to train certain principles, I think the primary reason for forms is even more fundamental. [/b]
I think that depends on the style. some systems of kung fu - shuai chiao for example - use single technique drills as their forms. The purpose of them, in addidition to all of the obvious things, is to teach/train a certain principle.
It is much easier to remember one form with several dozen techniques, than to remember several dozen individual drills.
To some. I personally find it easy to learn both, but prefer single technique drills.
Today, some MMA guy can just burn his drills on a cd, and keep a print out on a clip board next to him while working out…but I personally think a form is a cooler and more stylish way to remember all those drills!
A CMA can do the same thing.
Unfortunately, many MA today teach forms, and then do drills with techniques that don’t quite mesh with their forms, it’s like two different styles cause they don’t understand what the forms are for in the first place. So, if your instructor doesn’t emphasize breaking down forms into drills and concentrating on those, (once the form is learned properly, of course) then you should get a new instructor.
Agreed.
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]omarthefish.
Glad that you know how I am taught Chen TJQ.
And that you know better than my Sifu who is a lineage holder. [/B]
Well . . . I obviously don’t know how you are taught TJQ but I did both admit that the form is more central to TJQ than most styles. I even called it “the exception that proves the rule”
The reason I think even with that said, it should only be about a third is because there’s also push hands and post standing or wu ei standing or whatever you call it. Then that doesn’t even include things like training with the taiji ball, iron bar, seated meditation. Then there’s the repitions of single movements which take up a considerable time. All things considered, I don’t know how the form could take up more than a third in a complete curriculum. I didn’t even mention sparring because many traditional teachers don’t spar per se…
Lineage? I never even raised the subject.
Just had to add a thought.
In bagua, the forms take a very minor back seat to circle walking. In Hsing-yi, multiple repititions of the the 5 element fists make up the majority of training with forms also being pushed back into second place.
p.s. the problem with burning CD-roms is that all you get is a visual record of the techniques…
I feel like you guys were missing my point. Forms are just ways to remember several drills INSTEAD of having to write them down.
Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]
p.s. the problem with burning CD-roms is that all you get is a visual record of the techniques… [/B]
Of course. I personally don’t use a CD, but if I did, I’d use it as a supplement only, no different from a book. Once you’ve learned the form and know it, use can always have the CD as reference. I would never reccomend learning from a CD or book.
Omarthefish.
Than we are in agreement.
Actually I left my last TJQ school, because there were too many forms and too little attention to the smaller and finer aspects of them.
I agree that in the beginning the form practice takes a larger part than down the road.
To be honest I honestly can’t see how you could possible master Chen TJQ without doing single movement training and so on.
Ther is jsut too much in them to absorb in one go.
Cheers.
I can see hw forms could be good in the context of a shaolin temple, where other skills are also taught. But if that’s all you know you’re worse off than learning nothing.
Forms are nothing more than a collection of techniques
people aren’t going to fight the old ways in modern times. So you learn the forms out of curiosity.
I think most kung fu did emphasised the form training. What they didn’t do however was to emphasise forms in exclusion of other trainings such as doing drill works, body conditioning such as strength & flexibility exercises plus fist conditioning if you are doing external martial arts.
People who only study forms are like someone who buy lot of guns for personal protection but somehow have forgotten to buy bullets. Say, if someone done a drill of hitting tree with his/her fists repeatedly left and right for a year, s/he would be a far better fighter than someone who learned 3-5 forms during that period but nothing else.
I read somewhere that to be a good fighter you need “spirit, strength and skills” the importance being in that order. I think in some martial arts circle that order has been sadly reversed, (cough tjq cough aikido cough) 
Some styles don’t see the forms as a “recollection of techniques” but as a “recollection of principles and power exercises”. In some styles, you learn a fighting principle that you can use in many ways and with different parts of your body. There’s no ‘fixed truth’ in the forms.
Other styles see the form as a recollection of fixed techniques, and, as jun_erh said, the forms enter into the realm of curiosity, since some of their techniques don’t have any value in this modern times.