My take on the state of Kung Fu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

[QUOTE=neilhytholt;745257]Yeah, I don’t know what to say about that. I never used to think it was a big deal paying teachers until I tried to move from one Shotokan school to another and found out the forms in the first Shotokan school weren’t exactly the same, and the new teacher wanted me to re-learn all the forms.

At that point, it became a bit obnoxious because I didn’t want to have to re-learn all the forms just to do sparring and applications.

Then when it comes to CMA, it’s the same, no 2 mantis systems are the same, no 2 hung gar systems are exactly the same unless it’s with the same teacher or grand-teacher or a close lineage, so you have to re-do everything, which is a total waste of time.

Of course, all the teachers will say I’m just a troll and their way is better, or just stay in the same system, etc., but try to find teachers who do exactly the same thing if you have to move to a different town.

They’re mostly just in it for the $. If it’s not for the $ then they want free training partners in their system done their way.

But most people, I guess, don’t mind paying the $ and re-learning a bunch of new forms at every new school and never getting very good fighting.

You’ll find out if you ever change towns or move away from your teacher.[/QUOTE]

Wow, bad experiences BIG TIME! All I can say is you have to go with your better judgment! IF you have enough experience to know what’s worth it or not. I was just lucky. I was from a vietnamese Wing Chun (of all things) going to a Xing-Yi school, so I didn’t have much of a background there. But what I knew of kung-fu and teaching helped me understand what I was seeing with this new Xing-yi teacher. I didn’t hesitate much. I would say, in the end, it’s not the system that is being teached but the understanding of the teacher of that system that matters most. If he can’t show you the basics without loosing ground, or balance as my old teacher did, he’s not worth didley-squat…

J (am I making sense at all?)

22

forms are very inportant they teach you the correct form that you need so every thing is alined right …proper form is a very means the engery flows right and the body moves right in the right way …

especialy in hsing.i

23

[QUOTE=msg;745259]forms are very inportant they teach you the correct form that you need so every thing is alined right …proper form is a very means the engery flows right and the body moves right in the right way …

especialy in hsing.i[/QUOTE]

I can show you several of the same apps in Shotokan same in Hsing-I as Hung Gar as Mantis as Wing Chun with a completely different form that looks like it is nothing related whatsoever. The entire argument that form is necessary for apps is utter B.S., and the argument that you need to study a particular systems forms to do apps is also complete rubbish.

It’s just a way for teachers to get money off you and make you study nonsense for years and waste your time.

If somebody can practice MMA with punching and kicking and submission wrestling without doing any forms at all do you really think forms are necessary for application? Obviously not.

Anyway, end rant and sorry for getting involved in this thread.

24

Back to basics!

Sparring isn’t the “Be all , End all” of a system. It’s the workings that matters. Sparring is a tool to TEST your knowledge of the “workings” under pressure. If you can’t get around the “workings” of your system then how can you get to spar productively? In Xing-yi, we train every form (technique) individually, trying to gasp every possible application, one form (technique) at a time. If your style doesn’t permit you to do this, ask yourself what is the purpose of your system or teaching! Training every aspect of each form (in Xing-yi there aren’t that many) permits us to push the enveloppe in sparring. Sparring, on the other hand, will show exacly what we should focus in our form training, bringing (hopefully) new perspective in our form practise. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s the same principle in MMA! Practise it, try it, correct it if it’s wrong and practise it again!

J

25

To end my coments on this thread (for tonight, 2h15 AM here in Montreal, Canada) I will say that the state of Kung-Fu today is what YOU make of it. It is up to YOU to bring it to a higher level. Don’t blame your teachers, don’t blame your school’s philosophy, don’t blame the current commercial issues. YOU have the possibilty of bringing what YOU know to a competitive level. YOU, and only YOU have the responsability of bringing what YOU know to that level. If you can’t do it, or don’t have the ambition to do it, just find something else, or just be a hobbyist… but STFU!!! :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: :wink:

Juan

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Sometimes no matter how many times youchange schools, it’s the same circus.
-just different clowns.:rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=Juan Alvarez;745262]To end my coments on this thread (for tonight, 2h15 AM here in Montreal, Canada) I will say that the state of Kung-Fu today is what YOU make of it. It is up to YOU to bring it to a higher level. Don’t blame your teachers, don’t blame your school’s philosophy, don’t blame the current commercial issues. YOU have the possibilty of bringing what YOU know to a competitive level. YOU, and only YOU have the responsability of bringing what YOU know to that level. If you can’t do it, or don’t have the ambition to do it, just find something else, or just be a hobbyist… but STFU!!! :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: :wink:

Juan[/QUOTE]

Yep, don’t blame the system, don’t blame the teachers, only blame the individual and STFU.

That’s the typical responses. And then the CMA guys get beaten up by average street thugs or MMA people in MMA fights.

But STFU, it must be your fault. :rolleyes:

Let’s guess what the next responses will be. Accusations of trolling, then saying that Sanda or sanshou actually fight, then a lot of other angry responses and finally it will get swept away.

28

The most expensive lessons, school or clinics I have ever heard of are entirely in the “MMA” variety.

Most of the ‘Traditional’ instructors I have known, are poor and often hold a full time job to support running their school.

When I was teaching full time, I charged nothing to my students. (Traditional Japanese system)

Poor experiences abound for students in the ‘carnie’ atmosphere of martial arts the world over. Everyone is selling something it seems, and nothing is quite what is advertised.

If you have found some happiness Nelly, keep doing what you are doing and just try to let the past go. You will be better off for it.

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[QUOTE=neilhytholt;745260]I can show you several of the same apps in Shotokan same in Hsing-I as Hung Gar as Mantis as Wing Chun with a completely different form that looks like it is nothing related whatsoever. The entire argument that form is necessary for apps is utter B.S., and the argument that you need to study a particular systems forms to do apps is also complete rubbish.

It’s just a way for teachers to get money off you and make you study nonsense for years and waste your time.

If somebody can practice MMA with punching and kicking and submission wrestling without doing any forms at all do you really think forms are necessary for application? Obviously not.

Anyway, end rant and sorry for getting involved in this thread.[/QUOTE]

thats why mma is slopy i have sparred with mma guys one of my friends is a cage fighter .because of me practiceing my forms over and over again .wich makes my structure right and when he comes in and i can do a simple thing like the fighting **** form or horse ..its like hes hitting a brick wall my structure in alined and my chi is able to flow right because of forms so you can’t say that forms are just a way for a teacher to make money thats bull**** on your part

30

[I]forms are very inportant they teach you the correct form that you need so every thing is alined right …proper form is a very means the engery flows right and the body moves right in the right way …

especialy in hsing.[/I]

Reply]
If you are talking about individual technique practice in the air, yes that Is important for refining your mechanics, BUT in the old days it was not nessasarily focuses on as much as conditioning is and two man work.

Also, the martial Qi Gongs are the essence of your body mechainics. It’s important to work them first. Later you can put the lessons learned in the Qi Gong into your techniques in a solo fashion…but you STILL are not doing long drawn out formal routines…not in 1644 AD anyway…not back in the days when this stuff had to function quickly and you didn’t have TIME to drill endless routines for years before developing any reasonable amount of skill.

Do you really think a ming Dynasty Military unit worked on formal routines? No, they didn’t, they conditioned like crazy, and drilled apps with partners so they KNEW how to fight right away!

I Look at what we were doing at Steven Abbate’s classes…and it was condition, basics, and fighting application with partners. I don’t remember ever hearing about learning forms there, let alone seeing one. All his guys could fight, and they could fight way sooner than most CMA schools. Abbate himself was formally trained, and knew the forms our techniques came from, but he produced sucessful, competent fighters without ever teaching us a single formal routine.

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thats why mma is slopy i have sparred with mma guys one of my friends is a cage fighter .because of me practiceing my forms over and over again .wich makes my structure right and when he comes in and i can do a simple thing like the fighting **** form or horse ..its like hes hitting a brick wall my structure in alined and my chi is able to flow right because of forms

Reply]
You would get that from Qi Gong too, and probably more efficiently because you are working on a smaller amount of material compared to a 100+ move long form. Either that, or when you are Alone and have no one ot practice with, drill the individual techniques that you are actually sparring with in high reps to refine them. Drilling a whole form where 80-90 of the techniques are ones you aren’t even working two man apps is pointless.

By the time you are ready to teach, and can really fight well, you can work on precision through forms practice, (so long as you really can fight with All the techniques* in said form) but to a beginner, or lower to mid level student, it’s pointless, too much and really drags out the amount of time it takes to become a proficient fighter.

The way it was done in the Sung, or Ming dynasty’s military is what you need to do to develop skills quickly, or efficiently…just ask the MMA guys, they follow the same model.

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[QUOTE=msg;745268]thats why mma is slopy i have sparred with mma guys one of my friends is a cage fighter .because of me practiceing my forms over and over again .wich makes my structure right and when he comes in and i can do a simple thing like the fighting **** form or horse ..its like hes hitting a brick wall my structure in alined and my chi is able to flow right because of forms so you can’t say that forms are just a way for a teacher to make money thats bull**** on your part[/QUOTE]

The individual’s training methods are what produces results. As an instructor I can say we practice forms for stance training, set ups, and fluidity. I prefer basics, two man alive drills, sparring, and rolling any day over forms because they produce results, period. I have met practioners, one of my Sifus as a matter of fact, who could train forms, break down their techniques, and use them in sparring and real situations. From my experience most martial arts students learn better through alive typed drills with some kind of resistance. This is not to say forms are useless, far from it, but they should not take the place of what true CMA is and what has been battle tested. For the above poster, while I agree that there are MMA guys that are sloppy, I have met many more sloppy Kung Fu Stylists who claim to be able to use what they know but cannot. If you think training your forms over sparring will make you a good fighter or will enable you to defeat your average MMA or CMA fighter, you are in for a rude awakening.

33

Agreed.

I feel forms are for Refining and maintiaing the skills of mechanics and such after said skills have been developed,and are useable in actuall fighting.

They are not for developing the skills in the first place.

34

Interesting perspective Royal Dragon and I agree. You can’t learn a fighting art practicing forms by yourself in the woods (contrary to what the legends would have you believe). You need a live partner in front of you and lots of training of basics with a live partner and under various levels of pressure and choreography (ie from some to none.)

I proclaim the day of the “form factory” dead. Forms are pretty worthless unless you tear them apart into their more simple and direct applications. Some people want to live in fantasy world that if they just do the form more that magically they will become better fighters. Not true. They may get better conditioning but experience and refinement based on that experience counts more than just doing long forms repetitively.

I think that form is important only as long as it is teaching structure that can be applied across a lot of situations. The mindset of “you do this” and then “you do this” that is inherent in long forms is retarded and what I believe Bruce Lee referred to as the “classical mess.” Qi gong is important because it is teaching internal body structure but remembering the certain sequence in a form is pretty useless.

And this is coming from someone who learned close to 40 hand and weapon forms.

FP

35

Eric, if I may kindly say so, learning forms don’t prohibit your fighting abilities at all however. In fact I’ve been practicing my forms quite a bit lately, because I feel that CLF needs its core forms in order to be complete, and that my CLF has become messy because of the lack of forms thereof.

Regards,

Miluo

36

Eric, are you feeling allright? You seem like you’re having CLF withdrawal . . . . if you need help with anything or discuss anything shoot me an email.

miluohsu@gmail.com

I will most likely be going back to Sifu to train this summer as well as continue going to AMC Kickboxing & Pankration. If you wanna do real MMA you should come check it out as well. :slight_smile:

Regards,

Miluo

37

Fu pow,
From your posts it seems to me that you have a few issues with your CLF training. I don’t know much about your school, and I’m not commenting on anything other than a few things I picked up from your posts. If I am wrong, then I apologise if this post offends you. Either way, I hope you see this in the light it is intended, and not just jump on me for simply posting my opinion.

I enjoy fighting, even more than I do forms, but I see value in both parts of the martial arts. Forms has its purpose (classical and modern) and its unfair to dismiss that merely because of how you fared in one fight. However, I agree with you that if you want to learn how to fight, you should fight. Difference is, Im sure that in 13 years of training, you would have had some opportunities to try your CLF techniques against a live, resisting, partner. Your sifu can teach you forms and a few applications, but you should have developed the skill over time in order to realise the fighting value from that? I mean, forms are simply techniques and applications that are grouped together, aren’t they? I practice Gwa, sow, charp, etc on punching bags, on the dummy, and in forms, and then try it against a partner. Cool thing about that, I don’t need a sifu to help me with that, if you try it out, you will get to the same conclusions (provided you have an understanding of what you are doing – and Im sure you do). To get better at fighting, and to get a better understanding of that, all you need to do is fight. And fight often. Simple as that. The more you train and try out, the better you get at it. You know that.

I also think its highly unfair of you to simply dismiss CLF, because you weren’t successful in your fight. I can assure you that there are many fighters out there who can use their CLF in a fight in the way it was intended, and there are more than enough techniques within the style to add to a good fighting arsenal. We use plenty of CLF moves in San Shou with GREAT success. As Sifu Ross said, if you didn’t do something you should have done, it means you cant pull it off.

Form factories may be just that. I see what you mean there, but I think that after so many years, we would have had at least a few opportunities to try our stuff out.

I spend this morning with taishingpekgar master Chow Keung, and we spoke about the same topic. A good fighter is someone who understands the importance of training. Training forms may be part of what you consider ‘classical’, but in no way does it mean that its not valuable. Same as bag work. All has its place.

Go get a partner, put on whatever gear you want to put on, and go try out your clf techniques. Just last night one of the guys at our gym accidentally used to much power and speed on his sow choy, and knocked his partner out (here im talking two skilled and experienced fighters).

Point is, perhaps who are all to quick to blame our sifus, our styles, and our circumstances, where in fact, we should actually blame ourselves for the lack of skill.

:wink:

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Look Eric, I’m sure Havick01 will be more than happy to train against you if you called him up.

Also if you come to my MMA school you will find people to spar with everyday!!!

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Point is, perhaps who are all to quick to blame our sifus, our styles, and our circumstances, where in fact, we should actually blame ourselves for the lack of skill.

Reply]
You never hear an MMA guy say something like this. You wanna know why? Becasue they are TAUGHT how to use thier techniques from day one, and they learn them in small groups at a time untill they are good with them.

The very fact that you have to even make a comment like this is a huge testement to the inadiquate and low quality of the training you recieved.

Skill comes from practicing skill with your partners, not doing forms in the empty air. Maybe later down the road when you HAVE skill already forms will be a great too, to refine and perfect your body mechancis, or a good way for a teacher to remember his curriculem and such, but prior to that they really pretty much get in the way of learning and developing useable skills.

In the beginning especially, it’s better to focus on drilling basics (especially for structure and mechanics), conditioning, and lots of 2man work.

40

I think it’s all about balance. Forms are fairly important for the transmission of the style, but on their own they’re not much good. In a 90 minute class I do 30 minutes warm up and basics, 30 minutes form and 30 minutes of partner work. I also have a San Shou class and a sparring only session, so my students get pretty good at hands on pretty quickly. This isn’t a hard and fast structure, sometimes if the feel of the class is going that way then we do a bit more form or a bit more application, indeed I have done classes that were all sticky hands.
It must also be remembered that different people do kung fu for different reasons, and while there’s always a self defence element it may not be their primary motive. Seriously, if you’re over 24 in England, you are highly unlikely to ever be the victim of violence. This would suggest that intensive, expensive training for the sole purpose of self defence is a poor investment both in time and money. Give the guy your wallet, it’ll cost you less than a month’s training. Indeed, one teacher I spoke to tried teaching heavy application all the time, he said that when people put in all this effort and realised they hadn’t needed the skills they got bored and left.
So while it’s important to me that my students can all hold their own, I accept that not all of them are going to be world class fighters, and I think it would be wrong of me to neglect them, and forms gives another aspect of training that they can do well in.