My take on the state of Kung Fu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Rd,
I dont think you understood my post.

If we suck at certain skills, its only because we didnt work at it. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with the ‘inadiquate and low quality of the training you recieved’. That comment was really unfair.

We get a allot of flack (is that a right word) from MMA people, and rightfully so. I also think that there are way to many kung fu kids out there who has false egos who think they can do somehting, but are not prepared to actualyl put the work in it.

My argument is simply, that to me, it seemed that fu pow is blaming his school (and he even refered to form factories), where in reality, he should have had the skills (after 13 years) to know better. Sure, forms dont make a good fighter, but neither does bit ching about it.

my other gripe is, if you want to learn real fighting, medium or light contact sparring wont get you anywhere.

Nothing in my post was personal against fu pow or anyone. I dont think you are being nice in your responce RD :wink:

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Maybe I didn’t present myself well (I am good at that!)

I just never heard an MMA guy say somthing like that.

If we suck at certain skills, its only because we didnt work at it. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with the ‘inadiquate and low quality of the training you recieved’. That comment was really unfair.

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Sure it does. If you are in aschool that pushes forms every class, and Claims that is the key to fighting ability, then they are a low quallity and inadiquate fight school. It’s not nice, but honesty does not take feelings into account.

Also, you blame him for Not working at it, but what is he suppsoed to do, promote himself to Sifu and start changing the lessons when he is just a student and does not know any better than the guy running the school?

We ARE a pproduct of our educations. if he’s only been taught forms, that is all he has to work with. You can’t blame HIM for not working the skills. What’s he suppoosed to do, spar with the air on his own while the rest of the class follows the teacher in a form session? Come on man, get real!

We get a allot of flack (is that a right word) from MMA people, and rightfully so. I also think that there are way to many kung fu kids out there who has false egos who think they can do somehting, but are not prepared to actualyl put the work in it.

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Agreed.

My argument is simply, that to me, it seemed that fu pow is blaming his school (and he even refered to form factories), where in reality, he should have had the skills (after 13 years) to know better. Sure, forms dont make a good fighter, but neither does bit ching about it.

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How? His school taught FORMS as the key to fighting. we ONLY have our education to work with. Maybe he never got into a random situation that enlightened him? If he’s been at the top of his local food chain, hows he gonna KNOW different unless some sort of random exposure happenes by chance?

[I]my other gripe is, if you want to learn real fighting, medium or light contact sparring wont get you anywhere.

Nothing in my post was personal against fu pow or anyone. I dont think you are being nice in your responce RD[/I]

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I amnot being nice. I am not a nice person. I am a stark realist. Reality has no room for “Nice”, or any other prsentation. The reality is that if you are making comments like you did, then you most llikely are form a bad school or the person you are commenting about is, as that comment is an EXCUSE to let some no nothing teacher off the hook for his failures, and wrongly blames the student.

A student can only work with what he is presented with. If he’s presented with false knowledge, then that is all he has to work with. Blaming the STUDENT for the TEACHER’S failures is just a weak copout.

Maybe he hasn’t had the oppertunity to really test because his school is crap?

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.. or you are not reading what I am saying.

your very first post states exactly what I was trying to say. Its all about basics, and then you work at it. Simple.

I very much doubt that Fu Pows school did not teach fighting. I mean… 10 years and no fighting skill!!! I dont think so. 'cides, his CLF sifu is well known as a fighter, isnt he?

as for the rest of the stuff you are on about, Im not sure I understand it all.

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Royal Dragon, I have the same CLF Sifu as Fu-Pow.

Never once in my time of training did he make any statement saying forms are the key to fighting.

He explicitly stated to me that forms will not make you a good fighter.

I too had my share of issues with my Sifu, but I have always been able to work them out. I also attended a world-class MMA gym to further my training.

I don’t think you should make statements like how my school is crap based on your mere observations?

Regards,

Miluo

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Royal Dragon, through my observations at my MMA school, there are people that royally suck ass at fighting there as well.

And oh guess what, my coach trains professional UFC and Pride FC fighters.

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Just becasue a teacher is a good fighter, does not mean he can TEACH those skills.

As for basics, yes, basics are the key,BUT if his school is not teaching the BASICS of fighting, like foot work, extensive two man work, enter strategy, defense, and how to think on the fly, he’s not getting the basics.

Basics are more than just standing in horse stance and drilling punches. There are basics of structure, basics of physical movement, but there are also basics of USE, and that USE must also be drilled consistantly and regualrly…which just isn’t going to happen in a forms school.

You must drill your techniques agains your partners both in compliance while you are learning them, and against resisting opponents when you are learning to USE them.

The basics of Movement, and the basics of FIGHTING strategy are different. if you only do basics of movement, and not the fighting basics, yoou are only doing half your basics…and that is the fault of the person designing the lesson plan.

Now, who is making the lesson plan? is it the student? or the teacher? If the student can’t fight, it’ more ooften than not the fault ofthe person who is teaching for his failur to convey the knowledge, and the skill, not the student.

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So you are saying that my Coach (multiple coaches), who train profession to amateur level fighters, are doing a bad job at conveying information?

I think you need to just shut your mouth and stop calling everyone bull****.

Maybe sometimes it’s the student’s fault? Both my Sifu and MMA coach are exceptional martial artists and fighters, and I respect both of them. And if you aren’t absorbing certain information and understanding it, then it’s the teacher’s problem?

My MMA Coach will explain things over and over again to you. If the student doesn’t ask, should he feed the info to them on a ****ing silver spoon?

Do you want information in the form of some glorious light from Heaven given to you by Mother Mary, naked, with big boobs, ready to **** you in the process?

Congrats, you’re the first one to take her virginity.

My Sifu teaches in a manner that if you want to learn, he will show you some skills. But you also have to work on it. It’s a different atmosphere from my MMA gym to be sure.

But you seem to be implying EVERYONE sucks at teaching now? That’s a rather interesting theory you have. I guess whenever a teacher has a ****ty student, it’s completely the teacher’s fault. :rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=msg;745268]thats why mma is slopy i have sparred with mma guys one of my friends is a cage fighter .because of me practiceing my forms over and over again .wich makes my structure right and when he comes in and i can do a simple thing like the fighting **** form or horse ..its like hes hitting a brick wall my structure in alined and my chi is able to flow right because of forms so you can’t say that forms are just a way for a teacher to make money thats bull**** on your part[/QUOTE]

that’s laughable. If this is true and your friend is any good, you should be famous. please film that and post it. I would LOVE to see this awesome takedown repelling stance of yours.

Anyway, forms are unnecessary. Boxers and wrestlers have gone centuries without them. thai boxers don’t use them either, and you can’t question how dominant they are. Why? Heck, even in the cma world - Ross for example doesn’t teach forms in his san da classes…

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yeah, I see your point. But, my comments was directed at someone who has a good MA back ground from a few good schools.

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Is yoou school crap, or not? well, lets let logic decide this.

Does your school teach you to FIGHT with the style, or not?

Does your school teach you to FIGHT with the style, or do you just do a lot of forms?

Do you have to go to an MMA school to get skills? or does your teacher actually impart them to you himself?

My opinion of your school is going to be based on how the above questions are answered. If you guys spend coonsiderable amunts of time working actuall fight skills, then Fu Pow sucks…but some how, after his comment on knowing 40 FORMS and weapon sets, I don’t think he the one who’s wrong here.

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;745630]
Anyway, forms are unnecessary. Boxers and wrestlers have gone centuries without them. thai boxers don’t use them either, and you can’t question how dominant they are. Why? Heck, even in the cma world - Ross for example doesn’t teach forms in his san da classes…[/QUOTE]

yeah i aggree. neither do we (teach forms for san da). But if it took you so long to realise you cant use your forms in fighting, you obviously werent doing much in class were you?

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Yes, my school and Sifu taught me how to fight with my style.

My Sifu teaches me to fight because I ask him to. He has students that WANT to only learn forms, and he is fine with that.

And he used to be much more hardcore than he is now, he is more laxed with the training.

Regarding why I went to the MMA gym, well, because I wanted more exposure and to spar with other people? People with different games? I also wanted to learn Muay Thai specifically, that was the primary reason.

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[QUOTE=Infrazael;745589]Eric, if I may kindly say so, learning forms don’t prohibit your fighting abilities at all however. [/QUOTE]

It can if the time you spend doing forms is greater than the amount of time you spend drilling and sparring.

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Since you’re such an expert on MMA, who have you trained with? Anyone credible? Let’s see your MMA gym and coach?

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[QUOTE=Eddie;745635]But if it took you so long to realise you cant use your forms in fighting, you obviously werent doing much in class were you?[/QUOTE]

huh? was that directed at me? If so, I’m not sure what you mean…

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;745637]It can if the time you spend doing forms is greater than the amount of time you spend drilling and sparring.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but it wasn’t my idea, or my Sifu’s, or anyone else’s for him TO BE doing forms most of the time? I sure as hell wasn’t. I’ve even went through “form withdrawals” where I refused to do forms at all . . . . then I realized that my CLF was incomplete and was falling apart without the forms, so I’m back to practicing them.

I don’t see anything wrong with my approach? It works for me. However said that anyone FORCED Fu-Pow to do forms 90% of the time?

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[QUOTE=Infrazael;745638]Since you’re such an expert on MMA, who have you trained with? Anyone credible? Let’s see your MMA gym and coach?[/QUOTE]

Me?

my gym has judo classes taught by people who compete on international and world levels in judo and sambo.

we have bjj instructors who have placed in the top three at every national level tournament they have entered over the past several years.

our head bjj coach is a black belt and member of the brazilian top team

the school’s owner has fought a few pro mma fights - his FIRST fight was against dan severn…

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nevermind. my post was aimed at a specific situation and person. I never dissagreed with RD, actually suported him. Just think its funny that after all this time, fu pow seem to be blaming losses on one particular school (style or sifu).

If we have the tools, and we didnt use them, its our own fault. Dont blame the style/ sifu.

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[QUOTE=Infrazael;745638]Since you’re such an expert on MMA, who have you trained with? Anyone credible? Let’s see your MMA gym and coach?[/QUOTE]

I see the post you were replying to now. I think what he may be getting at is how do you know your clf teacher is teaching you to fight with the style? he’s saying that you felt the need to go to mma for more exposure and greater opportunity to spar. that beoing the case, it would seem that something is missing combat wise from the clf…

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So you are saying that my Coach (multiple coaches), who train profession to amateur level fighters, are doing a bad job at conveying information?

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Are thier students succsessfully learning the skills, or aren’t they? If yes, then he’s a good teacher, if not, he sux.