hours upon hours, years upon years

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

It seems a general consensus in MAs, CMAs in particular, is that it takes one heck of a loooong time to actually become proficient in them. But even then, it’s not like you would be invincible. So, why spend that time when one could instead train in a simpler system that you can use almost from the beginning?

Getting hit by an arm thrown about by someone having a seizure is able to injure as surely as a punch from someone with a months training or a Hoo Ha Poo master’s death blow is. Granted, training increases the odds you will be effective, but even an untrained spaz can whup some arse.

So what is to be gained in learning a difficult system?

2

well, if you learn to do a sidekick from the seventh floor, you can easily get chicks.

honestly, much of it is confidence not just in your ability to clock someone, but in yourself in general. plus, the more aware of the realities of violence, dislike of it usually overcomes the fear of it, so you can go through life knowingly avoiding violence while being apt to defend yourself rather than hiding from it because it may be around the next corner.

that, and it can be a **** good workout.

is good for immediate and long-term health.

is good for disposition (unless you just can’t get your ****ing bong sau to work :mad: ).

is good for a lot of things. but i think a lot of us are still expecting the chicks. :slight_smile:

3

KFC.

If your goal is solely to fight than yes, I would agree with you.
As RTB pointed out there there are also other benefits (confidence, fitness. alertness, etc.)

Not matter what you train if you wanna use it over a long time, you need to keep training and maintaining your skill.
How quick you can use and apply what you learned also depends on you and how your train.
This of course after the initial attributes have been trained and become part of you.

I have seen many MA that studied for 10yrs considered themselves advanced and skilled but still were fairly low-level, why because for 10yrs they trained low-level.

It all depends on you and what effect you train for.
Good MA training is hard and takes more effort and dedication than most People are willing to put in.

Look at Zhang Zhuang for example:
I know plenty of people that do so while watching TV and similar.
By doing that their minds are on other things, and they have wasted their training.

As I was once told you do everything 100%:
100% sleeping
100% training
100% ****ting
100% ****ing
100% eating
etc.

Cheers.

4

It depends on what the individual wants out of his training. Not everybody trains for the sole purpose of learning how to defend themselves quickly. Some people are in it just for general fitness, some for philosophy and history, some for the various methods of training - iron body, chi kung, etc.

RTB, get it right man - it’s the 11th floor

5

I think that the “Years upon Years” thing has been a little misconstrued.

A “normal” person should be able to be trained to effectively fight in about 6 months time no matter what style of MA that person is learning. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, a throw is a throw, a lock is a lock… Besides, perfection of a few moves is way more effective than mediocracy in many. It’s the magic and mysticism that boggs things down.

What needs to happen is that people have to either take responsibility for how they are training or how they are training other people. I use the “simpler” styles as benchmarks. I constantly ask myself, if I were to fight a person with "?"months "?"years of Thai boxing (fill in fighting style of choice), how would I do? Would I be a chump or a champ? Depending on the assessment, I modify my training. I know that that assessment would work when teaching too. You must constantly assess the basics of your students and rate them against proponents of other styles. Then drill the pi$$ out of them until they get it right.

Put the Fight first, the super mental crap comes with time, experience, and confidence.

6

MightyB

“Put the fight first.”

That’s what I was thinking.

7

Oh yeah,

rant

I absolutely HATE the lame “not everybody studies the Martial Arts to learn how to fight” excuse. What the F*** are you studying MA for? Study painting, Yoga, Tae Bo, ballet, who the heck cares because that’s utter BS. It’s a crap excuse for inneffectiveness in a crap style. The teacher’s crap, the style’s crap, the school’s crap, everything about it stinks.

Take for example Tai Chi. Real Tai Chi isn’t Kwai Jai Kang Kung Fu grasshopper nonsence, it’s fighting. Why the F*** do you think that it’s called the Grand Ultimate Fist style?

I remember watching a guy shake like an epilectic whilst performing tai chi because he didn’t know what the f*** he was doing. He thought (and was telling people) he was exerting extreme chi, that’s why he moved like a Parkinson’s patient. If you asked him “how do you apply that move?” he would look at you like you were from Mars and say, “this is Tai Chi, not fighting”. :confused:

Martial Arts especially traditional CMA follows a very linear A to B to C to infinity process. First, you condition and strengthen the body through exercise (so you can be physically able to fight). Second, you learn to fight. Third, you develop the internal powers. Why do people believe that they can start at C? I don’t know the answer but it’s killing CMA.

rant over

8

Hey Tainan…

Saw the vids on the other Forum… The ones that I seen were all good. I liked them all, not sure which was my fav., but they all were good.

9

So, do six month to one year boxing neophytes beat 8 year boxing veterans all day? I don’t think so.

10

KC

No, well, Maybe…

That’s not the point, the point is that those boxers should be able to fight well against another boxer with 6 months to a year of boxing experience, and, they should be able to effectively deal with a self defense situation.

The 8 year ring experienced veteran is already on the path to a higher level. He didn’t get there by meditating though.

11

Re: KC

Originally posted by MightyB
[B]No, well, Maybe…

That’s not the point, the point is that those boxers should be able to fight well against another boxer with 6 months to a year of boxing experience, and, they should be able to effectively deal with a self defense situation.

The 8 year ring experienced veteran is already on the path to a higher level. He didn’t get there by meditating though. [/B]

I’d say the same thing about a kung fu fighter, or any kind of fighter. That’s my point. However, to become a really good fighter takes more time, and even the so-called ‘naturals’ often have experience with contact before they started fighting.

And your veteran didn’t get any sort of life by just boxing. Heck, he might even meditate on the side for a little quiet.

So, what’s the point of this thread again?:smiley:

All of these new and fresh perspectives are just what I need.:stuck_out_tongue: :wink:

The problem with any general consensus is that you cannot assume that a single person you are addressing holds it to be true, and so you end up in conversations with people where you make assumptions about their beliefs and practices. That is my summary of the entirety of the MMA vs. TMA argument.

12

Re: Oh yeah,

mightyb,

Originally posted by MightyB
[B]rant

I absolutely HATE the lame “not everybody studies the Martial Arts to learn how to fight” excuse. What the F*** are you studying MA for? Study painting, Yoga, Tae Bo, ballet, who the heck cares because that’s utter BS. It’s a crap excuse for inneffectiveness in a crap style. The teacher’s crap, the style’s crap, the school’s crap, everything about it stinks.

Take for example Tai Chi. Real Tai Chi isn’t Kwai Jai Kang Kung Fu grasshopper nonsence, it’s fighting. Why the F*** do you think that it’s called the Grand Ultimate Fist style?

I remember watching a guy shake like an epilectic whilst performing tai chi because he didn’t know what the f*** he was doing. He thought (and was telling people) he was exerting extreme chi, that’s why he moved like a Parkinson’s patient. If you asked him “how do you apply that move?” he would look at you like you were from Mars and say, “this is Tai Chi, not fighting”. :confused:

Martial Arts especially traditional CMA follows a very linear A to B to C to infinity process. First, you condition and strengthen the body through exercise (so you can be physically able to fight). Second, you learn to fight. Third, you develop the internal powers. Why do people believe that they can start at C? I don’t know the answer but it’s killing CMA.

rant over [/B]

i’m sorry, mightyb, but i have to disagree with this rant. who are you, i, or anyone else to tell a person that they’re doing what they do for the wrong reasons?

i do think you have a good point that if someone is using that as an excuse, then it’s pretty feeble. but if that’s genuinely how they feel, that they want to practice martial arts for some reason other than actual combat, then why on earth shouldn’t they?

this isn’t a question of semantics. we all know what ‘martial’ means. we all get the implication of ‘chuan’, ‘kwon’, or ‘fist.’ but there are droves of martial arts that presumably have to be practiced for some reason other than combat. take kendo for example. unless you’re including sparring as combat, that is. yes, it’s conceivable that someone would train in kendo for combat. but it’s just as likely that they do so for the cultural experience, the exercise, etc. and i’m not going to tell them that they’re wrong to do so.

how about archery? clearly has its origins in combat. does that mean that every archery enthusiast is training to shoot someone?

why should other martial arts be any different?

people do this because they like it. why they like it is a largely individual thing. as it should be.

stuart b.

13

KFC - I would say that it takes years to “master” any particular form, becoming proficient in it may come much sooner.

14

I think that in personal level,internal development of you should start from day one.
Besides that,does somebody really want to just learn self-defense for the rest of one´s life? It is OK to do so,but there are more in arts,if one says “so what the hell do you learn MA for if not fighting?”
I think these all things,including “fighting” should be there.
I´ll hijack just a bit but another thing I´ve been slightly depressed in reading is those occasional complaint´s on why does not your average MA practitioner eat nails for breakfast and breathe fire even though he does MA.
Why prove something?

:slight_smile:

15

Re: Oh yeah,

Originally posted by MightyB
rant
I remember watching a guy shake like an epilectic whilst performing tai chi because he didn’t know what the f*** he was doing. He thought (and was telling people) he was exerting extreme chi, that’s why he moved like a Parkinson’s patient. If you asked him “how do you apply that move?” he would look at you like you were from Mars and say, “this is Tai Chi, not fighting”. rant over

This is interesting to me. I’ve seen people say that Tai Chi for health is nonsense because you have to learn the applications of the moves.

My Tai Chi class is billed as Tai Chi for health. We still learn the applications. Even if you are just doing it for health, you still have to learn the applications in order to do it right. Teacher says to keep your head upright not to improve your posture but because you want your range of vision as wide as possible when fighting multiple opponents.

The eighty year old man in my class recovering from a stroke isn’t going to use this to fight multiple opponents. He is learning it as a martial art but is doing it for health reasons. His balance has improved so much that he threw away his cane.

So I’m with apoweyn on this. “Who are we to mandate why?”

16

Question to answer a question

Can you fully learn to play the piano in a couple of months?

Can you encompass the full art of playing a guitar in a couple of year?

Same as any other art..

Now the kazoo may be a different story :slight_smile:

17

Simpler MA’s simply beat yourself up in the long term

I have absolutely no interest in any of the simpler MA’s.

  1. Their curriculums are limited.
  2. They are usually sports.
  3. You can’t do them effectively into old age.
  4. They don’t promote health into old age.
  5. They have no gestalt/holistic knowledge of the human condition.

-David

18

Originally posted by MightyB
[B]I think that the “Years upon Years” thing has been a little misconstrued.

A “normal” person should be able to be trained to effectively fight in about 6 months time no matter what style of MA that person is learning. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, a throw is a throw, a lock is a lock… Besides, perfection of a few moves is way more effective than mediocracy in many. It’s the magic and mysticism that boggs things down.

What needs to happen is that people have to either take responsibility for how they are training or how they are training other people. I use the “simpler” styles as benchmarks. I constantly ask myself, if I were to fight a person with "?"months "?"years of Thai boxing (fill in fighting style of choice), how would I do? Would I be a chump or a champ? Depending on the assessment, I modify my training. I know that that assessment would work when teaching too. You must constantly assess the basics of your students and rate them against proponents of other styles. Then drill the pi$$ out of them until they get it right.

Put the Fight first, the super mental crap comes with time, experience, and confidence. [/B]

I disagree. I know someone who, for their fist year in xingyi learned but one stance and one punch. It wasn’t due to mysticism, but due to perfection. He wanted his student to fully understand everything he possibly could about the punch and stance. I know we’ve all heard about the days of old where students for the first several months did nothing but horse stance. It’s not the “wrong” way - just slower.

19

Seven Star

You said you disagreed, but you actually agreed… :eek:

I said:

“Besides, perfection of a few moves is way more effective than mediocracy in many.”

and:

“It’s the magic and mysticism that boggs things down.”

You said:

“I know someone who, for their fist year in xingyi learned but one stance and one punch. It wasn’t due to mysticism, but due to perfection. He wanted his student to fully understand everything he possibly could about the punch and stance.”

I betcha he could apply that punch too. :stuck_out_tongue:

20

It is truly simple.

Kung - Fu… the definition of which is Time & Energy.

We learn/practice over much time and expend a lot of energy for the purpose of HEALTH. The motions we use help us keep an overall “shape” in our health. CMA helps us use muscles that are not used in ordinary activity. The cross-legged stance for example.
This allows us to have a more solid stance.

This helps not only our fighting ability, but as we age, the fact that our “support structure” is stronger BECAUSE we’ve trained all those unused muscles, we should better able to prevent a fall in the first place. Then, if we do fall, we’ve been trained HOW to fall.

Did you know that 80% of elderly women who fall and break their hip(s) DIE within 3 years?.

So, MA and especially CMA is really for health first.

YES, if your goal is Self Defense, take some crash course or seminar to learn a dozen techniques, practice them well until they become instinctive… and THEN learn the long-term stuff for health.

In the end, the long term stuff KUNG-FU (TIME & ENERGY) will refine and perfect your motion. It will make you more efficient in motion. More power less energy. Better balance. These are all very important, yet require the dedication and timelessness to acquire.

Sifu Z