a modern problem to traditional styles

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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I’m under the impression that since the rise of so called NHB fighting, and the success of grappling and arts like muy thai, that some people believe these arts to be superior because of the evidence provided in the arenas so far.

My theory goes that the more modern arts don’t have anything up on the traditional arts, except that for the way they train. If traditional arts adopted more modern training methods - forget all the qi crap and start weightlifting for strength, encourage the use of modern training equipment and methods and some real hardcore training as well as cross training.
I say cross training because there is a disease spreading through modern but traditional schools. See, in an effort to keep students, many instructors are telling their students the don’t need to cross train, that their art is complete and effective at all ranges. This is usually not true and modern fighters have seen this and adapted, time we traditionalist adapt too.

I firmly believe that traditional arts can be translated into the modern era effectively and can be used to compete effectively as well, but the people who want to compete have to adapt to the way their opponents train - if you have a beer belly, if you get winded after running a half mile, if you get dazed and confused after one or two punches, or you have to take a break after your first minute of sparring - you need to train harder :slight_smile: If someone close to you or your training says don’t worry about kicking, or grappling or any other of the, believe it or not “effective” techniques out there, then move along and find someone else to train you.

If your not training hard - and by hard I mean real hard. Breaking a sweat during training does not constitute hard in my book, and hopefully not yours. If your not sparring at full contact with minimal pads, stop arguing about traditional arts being effective in a competitive setting. If your not taking shots and fighting traditional guys who are training hard, stop spouting off about MMA being better. Unless your out there not only touching hands, but sparring, and fighting with other styles not the one you are practicing, no one wants to hear your opinion on how mcuh better your art is.

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Re: a modern problem to traditional styles

Originally posted by red5angel
I’m under the impression that since the rise of so called NHB fighting

Yah I think that’s why they call it MMA now…

My theory goes that the more modern arts don’t have anything up on the traditional arts, except that for the way they train

Okay… Looking agreeable so far…

If traditional arts adopted more modern training methods - forget all the qi crap and start weightlifting for strength, encourage the use of modern training equipment and methods and some real hardcore training as well as cross training.

Still doing decent, although I’m not sure you gotta cross train unless you’re serious about competing in MMA.

Nobody really bashes boxers for “only boxing”, it’s the fact that the learn, train, and use their stuff at a high intensity level on a daily basis.

I firmly believe that traditional arts can be translated into the modern era effectively and can be used to compete effectively as well, but the people who want to compete have to adapt to the way their opponents train

no problem

if you have a beer belly, if you get winded after running a half mile, if you get dazed and confused after one or two punches, or you have to take a break after your first minute of sparring - you need to train harder :slight_smile:

I’m sure Tank, Cabbage, Ted Williams (KOTC not the 'Sox), and Travis Fulton would disagree with some of that.

If someone close to you or your training says don’t worry about kicking, or grappling or any other of the, believe it or not “effective” techniques out there, then move along and find someone else to train you.

Again, this is dependent on your goals.

If your not training hard - and by hard I mean real hard. Breaking a sweat during training does not constitute hard in my book, and hopefully not yours.

Keep on preaching, and we the choir will keep on singing…

If your not sparring at full contact with minimal pads, stop arguing about traditional arts being effective in a competitive setting.

I can hear the sirens now.
you went from making some sense to sounding like you are advocating a death wish.
Safety equipment is not there to make the pain go away; but to reduce injuries so you can train harder, longer, and more frequently.

If your not taking shots and fighting traditional guys who are training hard, stop spouting off about MMA being better.

good luck trying to find any :stuck_out_tongue:

Unless your out there not only touching hands, but sparring, and fighting with other styles not the one you are practicing, no one wants to hear your opinion on how mcuh better your art is.

beautiful.

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Yea, none of this is new.

No matter the discipline, folks striving to really grasp their art and taking it out to fight against other disciplines are learning what works for them and what they need to work on. They also know that nothing works 100% of the time, they can guess wrong, get caught sleeping for a second, the human factor ect.

The debate is, “What is traditional?” I would say MMA is very traditional. There practioners train it whith the heart and discipline of real martial artists … that too me is traditional.

I’m studying “traditional martial arts” from a Chinese man who specialized in Ba Gua and Hsing-I as well as pole and sword fighting. I don’t really like being labled as “kung fu” though, because that conjures up images of “chop, chop” and big splits and wobbly swords.

If you know that your training works, that’s all that matters.

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hmmm I dont know where to go with this. other than say.

You can use traiditional moves to stop “modern” mma/nhb techniques. and therefore you arent branching to far away form tradition.

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Heart (the neglected art)

You have your fundamentalist BJJ just like you have your fundamentalist Kung Fu stylist. It’s in our nature to hold dear and try to preserve what it is that we love. Now with that being said and I hate to reiterate a point that has already been made here, but we all have pretty much the same idea/theories about fighting. (Punch, kick, advance, retreat, move side to side, counter, attack standing / ground.) Even within our own styles these concepts may vary in appearance but are still there. Now what differs are the players (i.e. sizes, ages, gender, mobility, sight etc) INTENT, and training methods. Most MA students have asked themselves these questions “Do I want to be a full contact fighter", Do I want to fight at all other then just for self defense?" “Can I really fight?” “What if this happens or that happens will I be able to react fast enough to save myself?" The questions can go on and on.

The only real question in life is “What am I willing to do to achieve what I want?” If my goal is to be bet every BJJ in the world with out going to the ground then am I will to train my Kung Fu to a fine razors edge? If my goal is to be the Next Trump am I willing to do what it takes to become that? I am a firm believer in it’s not the style it’s the heart of the player. If I am willing risk life and limb to get my way and your not then I believe I will make it and you won’t. (There is always an X variable no one can see but we will leave that out for now) I recently read the story of Masahiko Kimura the man who defeated Helio Gracie. Even though I don’t train in BJJ I loved this story. Two parts stood out to me more then any others:

Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his corner “threw in the towel”. Kimura was declared the winner by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had the greater fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie’s tremendous will to win.

AND

At the end of session, Kimura taught Shime-Waza. Initially, he demonstrated the techniques, then he allowed the students to choke him. Since he was somewhat intoxicated, he was choked into unconsciousness by the student. Without defense, even Judo greats can be chocked into unconsciousness by a white belt student

No one can control the X variable in this case a broken armand the other sake. Mr. Gracie had his mind made up of what he wanted and risked his life for it and only stopped fighting because of his “corner” as the story goes. That’s what each and every MA has to decide for him or her self when it comes down to it will I do what it takes or will I not. Contrary to what you might believe even BJJ have people in there system that doubt themselves and the BJJ system. A paraphrase from Lloyd Irvin newsletter (a great investment in time for all MA’s to read). There is only one Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Pavarotti, and Al Pacino, (Sent of Women “Classic”) Dj Qbert, and Emimen. These individuals took their art and crafted it to be the on top right now. Not over night and they did not win every time but they are still considered some of the cream of the crop players in their respected fields.

Sorry folks for the length… Sorry…

Shen Zhou

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Still doing decent, although I’m not sure you gotta cross train unless you’re serious about competing in MMA.

good point. it’s always a matter of goals, however I believe that all ranges of combat need to be addressed for most serious martial artists, for self defense or competition, and cross training is usual necessary for this.
As for the pads and fighting and all that, agreed. Wear safety equipment but from time to time fighting with a minimal amount is ok in my opinion.

The debate is, “What is traditional?”

Actually I’d say we just have to wipe away the “Traditional” Label. I believe it’s holding people back. there are some out there who believe that training traditionally is the only way to go. I’ve trained traditionally, and while it can be hard and can certainly build an effective fighter, that fighter can get that much more out of his ability and his art if he were to push beyond traditional and accept some modern training methodologies. I have a good example. When I was training in a particular art, I was constantly told not to weight lift but to just practice my forms and drills and don’t worry about it. I was in the worst shape of my life, sick all the time ( contrary to popular belief that qigong is supposed to help you stay healthy) and I wasn’t fighting as well as I could. I started lifting weights again, doing the things I used to do before and my ability to fight increased considerably.

shen zhou - I think heart has a lot to do with it. If you have the heart and your really out there trying, busting your butt to get that high level of skill, I say that’s great! Then you probbaly know all this stuff as pretty basic, and you probably don’t have a problem representing what it is you do. however, if you don’t have the heart to train hard, to take that extra time out of your life to work at getting taht skill. If you odn’t have the drive to push yourself every day, even though you might not feel like it, to eat right and to maintain your health - then don’t be out there trying to tell people that what you have is the apex of martial arts skill. That all others strive to have what you have. don’t go critiscizing other arts about the way they do things.
Guys like MP, Evolution Fist, Shaolin Tiger and so on, those guys who get out there and fight can say anything they want in my opinion. They may be wrong, and we may argue about it, but at the core I know they are out there testing what they believe, and it’s possible our experiences just diverge.

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Red I Agree

I agree but that’s with anything, if you don’t know or do it yourself you should keep quiet about the subject. But in the same breath MP, Evolution Fist, Shaolin Tiger are the guys you respect and know about from personal experience. Even though I am sure these guys are very proficient MA’s they are a very small few of KFO and the martial community at large. I personally know a number of very skilled fighters on KFO that posts less frequently and may not be able to write as eloquently as MP, but that takes nothing from there fighting ability or the valiantly of what they have to say. I have read many of the posts from each person you mentioned and I find them very enlighten mostly because they are logic based rather then emotional. I have a rule I live by “take everything for what it is.” If its BS and you know it no need to point it out to be BS because either everyone knows it or will figure it out and to point it out would be excess. If it’s the truth then great those are far and few between when it comes from most peoples mouths. Here is my equation for life including my kung fu. Heart+Intent+Logical Thought+Humility+ (Small Amount of ) Arrogance+ Well Rounded= A good life. Now like I said there always the X variable which no one knows or can control but it is our personal equation for life that allows us to counter and moved pass the X variable. Just that’s just my opinion. People can say what they want but eventually everything has to be tested. Past the Darwin mold is simple cause and effect. Effect = “You lost”, Cause= “to many reasons to list.” The strong will survive through cause and effect and the weak will not. I agree with you that in order to compete against the best who ever that may be you have to train like them and better. Its NOT the style its about who wants it more me or you.

Shen Zhou

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My theory goes that the more modern arts don’t have anything up on the traditional arts, except that for the way they train.

I strongly disagree. Training method is only one variable in the problems with tma.

edit I should elaborate since I’ve got a little time.

Problem : a guy wants to beat you up.

TMA solution: throw a bunch of strikes at him until he stops.

MMA solution: use a systematic approach to dominate, control and negate him.

TMA’s have little or no overall strategy for thier system of fighting. they just go from one technique to another until they “find gold”. hardly well thought out. (watch them rally"but a fight is chaos!", to which I’ll shoot right back, “Then why are you practicing pre-arranged forms?”)

btw: Red, you should read “Mastering Jujitsu” by Renzo Gracie & John Danaher (kinetic press) I’m not a huge Renzo fan, or a bjj zombie either, but the book’s title is a little misleading. It is a book about MMA and mma theory and IMHO few people write in such an unbias and simple yet truthful manner than Danaher. He does an excellent job into breaking down the history, theory, technique and reality of a fight. I think it is a must have for anyone interested in unarmed fighting.

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can you expound ST?

Shen Zhou, that was a small list of the people, not an exhaustive one by far.

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I edited my prior post.

I also have more to add but am a little strapped for time.

Along with just the physical training, removal of much of the tma worhtless techniques.. tma’ers have to drop the costumes, the ego, the belts, the grandmaster ego etc…

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Re: a modern problem to traditional styles

Originally posted by red5angel
forget all the qi crap

Ironically, I think alot of the problem here is deviation from traditional ideas, rather than dogmatism about it. Or, more accurately, confusion about what the traditional ideas actually are. Internal methods taught traditionally are extremely pragmatic and traditional classes tended to be informal. In America, an American’s preconceived notions on what traditional means replaced what it actually meant, and alot of that got rejected. Cultural things like belts, uniforms, and titles - and technical things like believing you don’t have to work hard when you’re “internal” are part of the contemporary American kungfu culture, not the traditional Chinese one.

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Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]Problem : a guy wants to beat you up.

TMA solution: throw a bunch of strikes at him until he stops.

MMA solution: use a systematic approach to dominate, control and negate him.

TMA’s have little or no overall strategy for thier system of fighting. they just go from one technique to another until they “find gold”.[/B]

This is just plainly incorrect. The technique of traditional chinese internal martial arts, for example, are entirely based on the theory of domination. They also contain explicit training methods to develop overall strategies - an obvious example would be the push hands paradigm central to taijiquan.

I think you’re just distinguishing between good and bad instruction here, rather than traditional versus modern (or perhaps between striking and grappling based arts).

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. The technique of traditional chinese internal martial arts, for example, are entirely based on the theory of domination.

domination by random striking until your opponent stops.

Please show me an overall philosophy or concept that guides CMA in any manner that could parallel judo, without a doubt the “father” or modern combat (bjj, sambo, sanshou, mma) who’s “maximum efficiency thru minimum effort” has proven to be a complete truism.

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Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
domination by random striking until your opponent stops.

No. Domination of position, posture, and balance.

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Shen Zhou

I salute you. You said so much right; I wish I posted all of that.

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actually I’ve seen the book ST, I’ll have to pick it up!

I’m having a hard time following you on the whole systematic approach. Can you give me an example on both sides?

Chris M. - What do you think the western view of traditional has hurt the study of traditional arts? Can you provide some direct examples?

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wing chun has center line and structure theories. one example of interperetation is to protect the center line and break the opponent’s after or during which a continuous attack is followed, a simple way being chain punches. There are specific entry and set up techniques with common and practiced follow ups.

Hung Ga has something slightly similar with 12 bridge hands and includes a whole avenue particular to joint isolations and take downs not so dissimilar to Judo.

Hsing Yi has fairly clear theories and principles on entry, follow ups, and finishes.

not to say that these systems elaborately cover all ranges. Just to show that there are fairly specific theories pertaining to initiating, controlling, and finishing a fight in some TCMA’s.

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Originally posted by red5angel
What do you think the western view of traditional has hurt the study of traditional arts?

I shouldn’t say “hurt”, because people should be free to explore what they want in the arts, so long as they’re doing it honestly.

But I personally like training with no pretense: just a bunch of guys having fun, working hard, training together. This is a very familiar approach in the tradition of martial arts. But people have a fantasy of what “traditional” means, which includes an awful lot of pretense, and takes precedence over that reality. This creates a contemporary cultural phenomenon which only goes by the name of traditional.

It’s telling to watch some of the most famous traditional chinese instructors happily mixing it up with their students and wearing normal clothes, then the next day seeing an anglo-saxon American wearing a faux Mandarin outfit, insisting on being called grandfather in chinese, and being uncomfortable even touching any but his senior students.

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just to kinda back up what bro #9 said, I see a lot of the principles and methods (faht) of the chinese martial arts providing a pretty specific game plan.

So I’m not exactly sure where you were going with that ST00.

My complaint about it is a little different.

Take for example the bridging and gate theories that are so prevalent in southern TCMA.

So much time is spent in learning how to apply it against other people who do it.

With bridging and gate theory, this means expecting someone to want to engage first, that they’d be shooting for some kind of trapping range; versus someone who plays with ranges, uses noncommitted attacks, fakes, and other things that aren’t so common to TCMA.

I believe the theories can feasibly be re-worked and re-tooled to work in dealing with someone who has more of a “modern” (ie non-TCMA) approach; with a lot of time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears spent sparring through it.

But who actually does it?

And those who try to do it, how many of them actually find people of other styles to work with to do the retooling? versus aping what a boxer, muay thai guy, bjjer, wrestler, judoka, etc would do in a totally inept and unrealistic way?

I imagine someone good at bridges, gates and what-not would look somewhat like a sloppy, pawing- type boxer/kickboxer, who would spontaneously let loose with some powerful short punches, throws, and the occasional standing sub.

Of course, we’ll probably differ in the view point that something that looks “sloppy” or “different” according to style-centric aesthetics is or isn’t “bad”. Similar to the Judo vs Shuai Chao discussions we had earlier.

Just like dropping the lead hand in boxing; it may look terrible from your technical background, but if you know enough of the counters and can make it work, no sense in not using it if you like it. Just hope you’re good enough to handle someone trying to exploit it.

We do see eye-to-eye however on focusing on those techniques that you can use within your given framework, and dropping (or at least not working on) those techniques that could only come off in the movies.

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christopher m. - ok I see what your saying. I tend to ignore those trappings as well. When I say traditional, atleast on this thread, I’m talking about some of the traditionals ideas to training methodology. I’m not a firm believer in Qi, so there is a lot of the standing around in certain postures you could throw out in my mind, unless you consider it a form of meditation to quiet the mind and body, then it makes some sense, if not over emphasized. Weight training should be ok, internal or external, but of course everything in moderation.
To be a good fighter competition or no, I believe you have to be in really good shape. I just recently came across a few photos of a tops student of a JKD school. The guy was about 400 lbs or so. I have a hard time believing someone like that could be an effective martial artist, but tha’s just my opinion.
I believe that to be a good artist you need to apply yourself with intensity and devotion. Alot of people pay concepts like that by word of mouth, but don’t spend enough time training or conditioning their bodies and minds. The “hippy” kungfu movement has sort of taken over and you have a whole lot of those guys who want to wear the faux mandarin outfit, and be called sifu, or whatnot. Some of these same guys are the type who **** and moan about how MMA guys are all meatheads and don’t understand their art or them. I don’t understand them and I’m a traditional martial artist.
Don’t get too bogged down in the tradition of things but look to more modern methodologies when we train. We don’t always go to a traditional chinese doctor to heal our ailments.