a modern problem to traditional styles

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Originally posted by red5angel
I’m not a firm believer in Qi, so there is a lot of the standing around in certain postures you could throw out in my mind

I’ve never been sure what “belief in qi” has to do with training. Training qigong doesn’t consist of saying “I believe in qi!” any more than weightlifting consists of saying “I believe in anabolism!”

You train or you don’t. The names and rationalizing you give to the training is academic.

Posture training is nothing mystical. Anyone teaching it to you should have shown you hands on what it does in a martial context, and directed you to do it yourself so you know what you’re doing.

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TMA’s have little or no overall strategy for thier system of fighting. they just go from one technique to another until they “find gold”. hardly well thought out. (watch them rally"but a fight is chaos!", to which I’ll shoot right back, “Then why are you practicing pre-arranged forms?”)
Add me to the disagree list. I have seen what you are saying but it’s not an obsolute. You could say that many teach martial arts in a half ass fashion and leave out the strategy. Musical kata is so much more entertaining.

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posture training is mostly what I am talking about. I’ve never seen any real good reason for it. Some deep stances build the legs, but you can do that through weights and a proper cardio workout as well in less time and you get more bang for your buck. However I have been told on a few occasions that it is for building up qi. an exercise I have so far found little use for.

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I’m not sure what you’re expecting: you’re not going to learn anything speculating about it. A good teacher would show you what it was for - and then there’s no need to speculate.

The same as any other training method.

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Re: a modern problem to traditional styles

Originally posted by red5angel
[B]I’m under the impression that since the rise of so called NHB fighting, and the success of grappling and arts like muy thai, that some people believe these arts to be superior because of the evidence provided in the arenas so far.

My theory goes that the more modern arts don’t have anything up on the traditional arts, except that for the way they train. If traditional arts adopted more modern training methods - forget all the qi crap and start weightlifting for strength, encourage the use of modern training equipment and methods and some real hardcore training as well as cross training.[/B]

I didn’t read past this, nor have I read any of the other posts, because it sounds like a re-hash of the same old argument. However, this theory you pose is the same thing we’ve been saying in posts of this nature for months…

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7*, you and I have been on this board long enough to have seen about 90% of the posts that are posted everyday. It’s a forum so every once in a while let’s discuss whether it be something we’ve heard or not. I often find new perspective in rehashed discussion. Atleast it’s on topic.

I’m not sure what you’re expecting: you’re not going to learn anything speculating about it. A good teacher would show you what it was for - and then there’s no need to speculate.

Christopher m - Maybe your not getting what I mean. these postures, etc.. are designed to cultivate qi, in a certain why, by standing or moving through them. That’s it, no secret techniques, no super grand ultimate move, just stand there in this pose for the next 30 minutes, you should feel our hands and feet tingle…

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Originally posted by red5angel
these postures, etc.. are designed to cultivate qi, in a certain why, by standing or moving through them.

Is this your view? This sounds like an odd theory for someone who isn’t a firm believer in qi.

just stand there in this pose for the next 30 minutes, you should feel our hands and feet tingle

This doesn’t sound like a very good training method.

That’s like if you invited your friend over to straddle you and you sat there rubbing each other for 30 minutes and expected to learn BJJ that way. I don’t think you’d learn BJJ very well (but it might still be fun, depending on who your friend is).

Luckily, a good BJJ instructor probably isn’t going to advise you to do this. He’s more likely to explain use of the hips, use of space, base, and pressure. He’s likely to give you drills which supplement these skills. He’s likely to give you techniques to practice, and progressively incorporate into your practice. That way, even though it might look like you and your training partner and just straddling each other, pushing and rolling around a bit - actually you’re doing alot of specific things to build up skill.

I’m not sure why you’d expect any less from a traditional chinese instructor teaching traditional chinese methods.

That’s it, no secret techniques, no super grand ultimate move

Definitely! No secrets, just straight forward training.

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hilarious…D@MN! :stuck_out_tongue:

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Originally posted by BMore Banga
[B]…Take for example the bridging and gate theories that are so prevalent in southern TCMA.

So much time is spent in learning how to apply it against other people who do it.

With bridging and gate theory, this means expecting someone to want to engage first, that they’d be shooting for some kind of trapping range; versus someone who plays with ranges, uses noncommitted attacks, fakes, and other things that aren’t so common to TCMA.

I believe the theories can feasibly be re-worked and re-tooled to work in dealing with someone who has more of a “modern” (ie non-TCMA) approach; with a lot of time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears spent sparring through it.

But who actually does it?

And those who try to do it, how many of them actually find people of other styles to work with to do the retooling? versus aping what a boxer, muay thai guy, bjjer, wrestler, judoka, etc would do in a totally inept and unrealistic way?

I imagine someone good at bridges, gates and what-not would look somewhat like a sloppy, pawing- type boxer/kickboxer, who would spontaneously let loose with some powerful short punches, throws, and the occasional standing sub.

Of course, we’ll probably differ in the view point that something that looks “sloppy” or “different” according to style-centric aesthetics is or isn’t “bad”. Similar to the Judo vs Shuai Chao discussions we had earlier.

[/B]

Good Insight mate. Bridge fighting can get confused by non-committed attacks (feints, footwork, etc) but a cool head and continued perserverence pays off. Sooner or later, most guys figure they have your measure, and comit to a forceful attack (the only kind that worries you), and your training comes to the fore. And yes, it does look sloppy.

As for TCMA being a series of strikes until the guy is done, well, only if you ignore the domination, engagement and entrapment strategies, which may account for 90% of the encounter.

I’m still having trouble with the difference between sport and life and death. Most real fights start with “BANG” black and flashing lights in your head, changes in the horizon line, and a vague feeling that you are touching someone that is not standing still, intent on continuing the onslaught… And you’re already hurting.

Instinct and touch and nasty-a$$ evil maiming techniques work too. Phoenix fist under the eye cuts like a knife, your fingers slip in and you pull the face off. How do you train that?

All this intense physical training is great, but you guys will get old one day. Knees and backs and ankles wear out. What are you supposed to do? Golf Fu?

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Redangel5 said

posture training is mostly what I am talking about. I’ve never seen any real good reason for it. Some deep stances build the legs, but you can do that through weights and a proper cardio workout as well in less time and you get more bang for your buck. However I have been told on a few occasions that it is for building up qi. an exercise I have so far found little use for.

Well how experienced are you at stance training? If you are standing there waiting for Qi to zap! into your body filling up your dantien, then I can understand your dissillusionment.

We stand to learn first to have proper alignments in the body, a good structure. Then also, over time (years btw…), release tension in the body to various degrees. Also to build strength. As you release tension, you can root much much better and have a better base to work your techniques from. You will never know how much tension you carry in your body while supposedly still and relaxed, until you actually release it. Up to that point, you didn’t even know it was there. At first, you can’t do it because your physical strength will not hold out until you build up some endurance for that particular posture.

Once you learn to relax and other things in your standing, you can take elements from standing practice, and itegrate them into your techniques. It is more than calming the mind. It becomes a physical response that you do without thinking. Obviously, this type of thing must be worked on over years.

Those who have derived benefits from standing practice, would be friggin insane to keep doing it if it did not work.

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Your room is ready. :smiley:

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I think the current bad reputation of traditional Chinese gongfu training can be attributed to the fact that there is actually very little traditional Chinese gongfu training going on in America period. Despite what many CMA practicioners may think, they are probably not training in the traditional ways. There are very few Chinese teachers with high-level skill in America after all. There are a few.

Go to Beijing and seek out some of the real-deal gongfu guys. The old school guys in China have dedicated way more time to training than you can imagine. In the past, they’ve had a lot more time on their hands for training on a daily basis. With the slower lifestyle and inefficient communist factories etc, these guys had more time to hang out, even at work, and practice. Some have really amazing fighting skill. If you don’t believe it, go there, find out who has a good reputation, then go to their house and challenge them. See what happens.

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Is this your view? This sounds like an odd theory for someone who isn’t a firm believer in qi.

no, just what I’ve been taught and told.

This doesn’t sound like a very good training method.

exactly :wink:

I’m not sure why you’d expect any less from a traditional chinese instructor teaching traditional chinese methods.

right and you still get all the ideas behind how to use the body and each part of it to accomplish the task at hand. Since I don’t buy into qi however, alot of posture training to me seems a waste of time, and there are plenty of so called TMA schools doing it.

CD Lee, some of thie things you are saying makes sense and I’ve heard them before. I"m not opposed to it but let’s take building strength as an example - why stand in a few positions for long periods of time when you can weight train and run for a faster and better response? The stillness thing I can agree with, the relaxation part.

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Originally posted by Yum Cha
Most real fights start with “BANG” black and flashing lights in your head, changes in the horizon line, and a vague feeling that you are touching someone that is not standing still, intent on continuing the onslaught… And you’re already hurting.

Sounds an awful lot like my first ring experience. :stuck_out_tongue:

Instinct and touch and nasty-a$$ evil maiming techniques work too. Phoenix fist under the eye cuts like a knife, your fingers slip in and you pull the face off. How do you train that?

As lkfmdc states in his thread relating to this subject; there are ways to train a simplified/safetied version; keeping it in the mix of techniques for free sparring, and then just making slight modifications when it’s go time.

All this intense physical training is great, but you guys will get old one day. Knees and backs and ankles wear out. What are you supposed to do? Golf Fu?

I feel old now :smiley: and I hate golf, so I’m gonna ride this mutha till the wheels fall off!

And if I ever get so crippled I can’t move, I’m gonna be the meanest, gun-totin, wheelchair-bound sumabittch that ever terrorized the old folks home. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Originally posted by red5angel
no, just what I’ve been taught and told.

Well, in the words of the great Lee (Spike, not Bruce): “Don’t believe the hype!”

Since I don’t buy into qi however, alot of posture training to me seems a waste of time

Like I said though, what does belief in qi have to do with training?

Training is training, not reciting what you do or don’t believe in.

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my take on this subject

I’m not sure there is a problem with traditional martial arts. I guess there could be, but the way I see it it’s a reality problem. Most traditional martial arts were forged on a battlefield. There main function was to inflict deadly force upon an assailant.
Very few people train in the original intent, instead we spar with pads and strike non-lethal areas of the body. That kind of sparing is really at a disadvantage against submissive fighting.

Honestly, who hear trains to use an eagle claw the way it was indented? Who here would in truthfulness kill someone in a fight using that technique? Very few of us, we like to say if it were a life or death situation then yes we would. But we all know that what we do in practice we will do in a fight. And what do most of us do …we spar. With pads without, it doesn’t matter. So you have a good left hook, what happens when it doesn’t work …..Whatever the reason..(guy is mammoth, has an iron jaw , berserk on drugs or knows how to defend himself and wrestle you to the ground) whatever the reason. I believe unless you use the traditional art as indented you shortchange yourself and the system.

If we are using mma as a gage to rate the effectiveness of traditional arts then I believe our gage is faulty. By using the term mma I’m referring to the style of submissive grappling so popular today. For if they are so superior to other arts for example, Shaolin wushu why didn’t Shaolin wushu die out? Why didn’t Ryu Kyu Todejutsu (precursor to karate do) die out to the jujitsu influenced samurai? Why did some samurai train only in atemi waza dominated systems? Note I’m asking question about an era in time when they actually used this stuff in life or death situations.

How barbarous the world would be if traditional arts used their main attributes in mma arts tournaments. Submissive grappling wouldn’t look they way it does now nor would it dominate….I’m not saying traditional arts would dominate either …much more like an even very bloody exchange would take place…

If you’re a submissive fighter and know how to cover up what really do you have to fear against someone who isn’t going to use deadly force against you?

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Big generalizations, but…

  1. People who are training for the love of the art aren’t really planning on using it to fight, they can then spend time learning esoteric weapons, culture and take their time doing it.

  2. People who train for self defense will not likely get to use their skills. They can spend their time dreaming up scenerio after scenerio to defend themselves against and also scare themselves.

  3. Those who intend to compete know that they will meet someone else with the intention of beating them. They have to spend their time learning the most effective techniques in the most efficient manner possible.

  4. There is a fourth group but they are small in number and very specialized. They are LEOs, and some military units that may use h2h in their line of work.

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Re: my take on this subject

Originally posted by GroungJing
I’m not sure there is a problem with traditional martial arts. I guess there could be, but the way I see it it’s a reality problem. Most traditional martial arts were forged on a battlefield.

really? which ones? seriously. My impression was that most were village styles. They were used in combat, but not necessarily in wars.

here main function was to inflict deadly force upon an assailant.
Very few people train in the original intent, instead we spar with pads and strike non-lethal areas of the body. That kind of sparing is really at a disadvantage against submissive fighting.

I disagree. since we’re talking about history, let’s look at judo. Kano used his judo to destroy nearly every jujutsu school he came in contact with. he eliminated some of the lethal techniques and created the sparring format. The practical use of the techniques against resisting partners is what made them so effective. If I’m not mistaken, his group even killed a few jujutsu guys at tournaments.

Honestly, who hear trains to use an eagle claw the way it was indented? Who here would in truthfulness kill someone in a fight using that technique? Very few of us, we like to say if it were a life or death situation then yes we would. But we all know that what we do in practice we will do in a fight. And what do most of us do …we spar. With pads without, it doesn’t matter. So you have a good left hook, what happens when it doesn’t work …..Whatever the reason..(guy is mammoth, has an iron jaw , berserk on drugs or knows how to defend himself and wrestle you to the ground) whatever the reason. I believe unless you use the traditional art as indented you shortchange yourself and the system.

sparring is the closest you will be able to safely come to a confrontation. Sparring itself is fine, but what format are you sparring in? If you are point sparring, then yes, I agree with what you said. But full contact sparring is a different story. I judo competitions, I have thrown people that outweigh me. I KNOW I can do it in the street. In the ring, I’ve knocked people out - I KNOW I can do it in the street. When that left hook doesn’t work, I do the same thing you would do - follow it with something else. What do you do when that eagle claw doesn’t work?

the japanese have a saying - ichi go; ichi-e it means “one encounter, one chance” when applied realistically though, how often does that happen in fighting? you’re not gonna get the one punch kill or the easy eye gouge.

If we are using mma as a gage to rate the effectiveness of traditional arts then I believe our gage is faulty.

If you have a better way, please tell us. And, it’s not a gauge of the art itself, it’s a gauge of how effecte YOU are with your art. If you can use it, you do well.

By using the term mma I’m referring to the style of submissive grappling so popular today.

that’s not mma - that’s submission grappling. mma means mixed martial arts - a combination of striking and grappling.

For if they are so superior to other arts for example, Shaolin wushu why didn’t Shaolin wushu die out?

that’s no gauge of superiority or effectiveness, only of what people have had fun doing. tae bo hasn’t died out either…

Why didn’t Ryu Kyu Todejutsu (precursor to karate do) die out to the jujitsu influenced samurai?

jujutsu for the most part is indeed dead. there were over 700 styles of jujutsu, where are they now?

Why did some samurai train only in atemi waza dominated systems?

because then they needed it. Also, they had not thought of another way to train. Why were these super effective guys beaten by kano’s guys?

How barbarous the world would be if traditional arts used their main attributes in mma arts tournaments. Submissive grappling wouldn’t look they way it does now nor would it dominate….I’m not saying traditional arts would dominate either …much more like an even very bloody exchange would take place…

doubtful. In the early UFCs, eye gouges were not illegal. If I gouged you and you couldn’t continue, I won. Even in the contests of today, kicks to the knee are allowed, pressure point striking is allowed, striking downed opponents, etc. the subminssion locks are breaks, but you stop before the joint is broken. What are you looking for that would give people some automatic edge?

and actually, if I have you on the ground and controlled, I can eye gouge, pressure point strike, etc. more effectively than you can, when you try against a fully mobile opponent…

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Methodology…

It is not that TCMA training is a completely different animal. It has the same “modern” training concept such as the I-method (Introduction, Isolation, and Intergration). The volcaburary is undoubtedly different. Unfortunately most styles are stuck at introduction, which is form practice mostly. Many styles have lost the drilling methods that are essential to Isolation. The safe way to practice the techniques, which in some cases are brutal, are lost. For example, you can practice delivering a throat grab with combat speed and stength (re: lively) in a drill safely. It requires the partner to time your grab so that he can tighten the neck muscle while breathing freely to protect himself from serious harm. It will also require a good structure (re: good stance). The downside is that a lot of minor injury can happen (bruises & scratches around the neck) not to mention if someone is gung ho about it, accident will happen. Now do you want to be responsible for some gung ho weekend warriors if something terrible happens? That’s one of the thing that pushed TCMA teachers not to go all the way. It is a very simple and almost common sense thing to drill but it would be deemed as " secrets" and too deadly. So, this we will have to bag it in the Sifus’ pockets. :wink:

As for TCMA don’t have a strategy and they appear to be just strike and strike, which translates to poor performance of intergration, that happen mostly because of the poor understanding of combinations. Also the poor understanding of the sport sparring game rules. The point sparring rule IMHO is so FUBAR that TCMA should not be considering adopting that format in the first place. TCMA teachers have hardly worked on the transition of their arts into the sports. There’s simply not a blue print of that exist at all for a long long time. So in the west you have some Kwoon that wanted to attend tournaments host by Karate or TKD, you will have to go by their rules. Again that’s poor intergration due to poor planning of attending events. If you are not true to yourself, how could you expect to perform well? I am not surprise that post-modern Kung Fu fair poorly against almost anything.

TCMA wisdoms are still profound and good schools are still out there. Finding it would be hard though.

Mantis108

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good post.