Kickboxing vs. Kung Fu vs. Karate

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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I just got through watching “Girl Fight”, and it got me thinking about the effectiveness, and fluidity of boxing. Boxing is only made up of about 4-5 techniques, and footwork, yet its one of the most effective forms of fighting around.

The effectiveness of kickboxing is about equal to boxing. Muay Thai, Savate, San Sho, etc. are some truly devastating systems of fighting. What’s perhaps most interesting about all of this, is the fact that kickboxers, like boxers, can reach an impressive level of proficiency in a very short time.

So I guess my question is this; Why is it that kickboxers seem to be able to develop their raw power and speed so much faster than traditional stylists like Karatekas and Kung Fu exponents? Also, why is it that the foot and hand techniques of the kickboxer seem so much more effective than those of Kung Fu and Karate?

I mean, in a fight, has anyone actually used a reverse punch?

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The ring is a ring and outworld is well…outworld.

When it comes to traditional arts,there are numerous things to think about.This could be why learning may be a long process,and possibly is.As traditional arts being more than sports.

I don´t know who made those claims/suggestions.
If it´s the case of thinking what art is better than other again,which I hope it is not,would be an endless journey.
These days though,when talking about SD issues,an experienced artist could very well direct one towards a gun course.

3

on the gwa choi ( back fist ) yes i have and actually against a boxer in a ring fight, guy was golden gloves and all in all it was an interesting experiance from both sides, basically it scared the cr@p out of him, because it isn’t something he was use too or had encountered in the ring. he wished to stay away from kicks and i wished to stay away from being limitted in my use of hands, so it was a compramise. the fight however was a public fight but on the quiet side of things hahaha.

the question you ask must come from personal experiance i suppose, from mine, i find if you walk into the ring with rules governed by a particular fighting skill, then more than likely you will find the rule governed skill will come out on top.

now i have heard things like it shouldn’t matter what the rules are you should be able to win no matter what, but this is childish and small minded thinking, to walk into a skilled players rules you should expect an extremely hard time no matter what and if anything a great disadvatage, this is why muay tai fighters do so well, in their art, none can beat them with their rules, well except in the 1950’s ( thailand ), oh ok then also the 1970’s ( thailand ) but no others :wink:

you have to also look at what is being seen, for every good fight you see on tape or on t.v. etc, there are thousands of boxers, muaytai, or whatever not as good, with gung fu or cma in general the level of skill seen is not really shown.

in asia especailly in the 50’s - 70’s and maybe into the 80’s there where some extremely good fighting , but these days it has been watered down due to rules, gloves, body protection, timed rounds etc, different time i suppose know.

i take nothing away from any of the skills you have mentioned, a good fight is a good fight and a skilled player is great to watch.

as to why they develop faster, i am not sure what measure you are using i have seen many martial arts have good young fighters with great raw skill, so i don’t see any disadvantage on that part, maybe it all comes down to who teaches them, these days anyone can open up a school, say this and that, next thing you know out comes the rubbish.

in older days if they teacher wasn’t good, then he would be closed down, sometimes the old ways are better lol

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Question

To the boxers and kickboxers out there - How much of your training do you spend developing skills for the ring ie., developing techs that are allowable in a tournament etc, and how much spent aimed at developing skills to neutralize an attacker (who may come at you with any attack imaginable) quickly and efficiently with minimal damage to oneself?

I’m not disrespecting anyone or any style here I’m just truly curious as to how you go about your training in a style aimed at ring fighting.

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kickboxers and boxers develope raw power and speed faster

i believe this is true in many cases. this would be because that is what their priority is. they have to become as fast and powerful as quickly as possible in order to take advantage of the few valuable years of their youth. unlike traditional martial artists they are not in it for “the long haul”. there is no time to perfect internal power, or complicated techniques. you will notice that most boxers and kickboxers only train one stance (right or left) as being an ambidextrous being is not their concern. also because of the protective equipment they can focus on developing that power and speed without worrying as much about certain issues such as breaking their hand. the traditional martial artist knows that he/she will not be wearing gloves in a fight and has more things to concentrate on when practising. also we must remember that almost all boxer and many kickboxers are training competitivly and will be training harder and more often than most traditional stylists you will meet. also as Arrowfist pointed out there are less techniques so it would seem obvious that you could learn them faster.

anyway i imagine there are a ton of other reasons but that is what came to mind for me. i for one will be taking the longer road.

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A subject I have spoken about with many of my friends and aquaintances who study any fighting art. I studied boxing first when I was young - 19/20. When I started Karate, and eventully moved on to other arts, the differences struck me right away.
The different situation boxing is practiced in is the main difference. There is a limited sphere in which to expect an attack (rules) and to counter these allows you to focus on a much smaller arsenal with more attention. There is also a similiar difference between studying and applying “sport Karate” and a wider “street” version. And again the same difference when you look at the arsenal of techniques one would like to master in any CMA. It can be easier to study all the techniques, but focus on a few that fit you naturally. You will then see a rapid improvement in your “basic” arsenal.

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Oops, neito had most of it already, I need to drink my coffee first before I skim these topics.

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Boxers don’t use a big arsenal.
What does a Boxer do in a bar fight? Jab, jab, uppercut.
What does a Boxer do against a mugger? Jab, jab, uppercut.
What does a Boxer do against their uncle Joe at a family gathering where he drank too much? Jab, jab, uppercut.
What does a boxer do if someone comes at them with a knife? Jab, jab, uppercut, bleed.
What does a boxer do when someone comes behind them and strangles them? Choke, choke, crumple.

Learning to build a good house takes time. Just learning how to use a hammer takes much less.

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Also, why is it that the foot and hand techniques of the kickboxer seem so much more effective than those of Kung Fu and Karate?

They seem? You’re [size=4]WRONG[/size], they’re not.

I mean, in a fight, has anyone actually used a reverse punch?

Maybe, if your point is asking if kung fu guys are supposed to use kung fu techniques when they fight yes they are.

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Try to know something about a topic before you start making statements concerning it. Thanks.

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Is not a reverse punch just a cross really anyway?

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the foot work is different between the reverse punch and the corss. with the cross, the rear foot may/may not slide in, keeping your stance narrow, and adding some momentum behind it.

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Originally posted by JusticeZero
[B]Boxers don’t use a big arsenal.
What does a Boxer do in a bar fight? win.
What does a Boxer do against a mugger? win.
What does a Boxer do against their uncle Joe at a family gathering where he drank too much? win.
What does anyone do if someone comes at them with a knife? bleed.
What does anyone do when someone comes behind them and strangles them? sleep.

Learning to build a good house takes time. Just learning how to type takes much less. [/B]

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Re: Kickboxing vs. Kung Fu vs. Karate

Originally posted by ArrowFists
[B]
So I guess my question is this; Why is it that kickboxers seem to be able to develop their raw power and speed so much faster than traditional stylists like Karatekas and Kung Fu exponents? Also, why is it that the foot and hand techniques of the kickboxer seem so much more effective than those of Kung Fu and Karate?

I mean, in a fight, has anyone actually used a reverse punch? [/B]

I’ve used a reverse punch.

as for the first part of the question, the difference is the nature of the training. kickboxers, boxers and grapplers (judo, bjj, etc.) usually begin fighting alot sooner than students in traditional styles do. They therefore gain experience sooner and are better at fighting at earlier stages.

kung fu tends to build the body and proper structure, making sure that the student is ready to move on to other techniques - kung fu takes more time by design. Over time though, they should develop tremendous power, and good fighting skill. boxing/kickboxing is faster out of the gate, but it evens out over time.

"Also, why is it that the foot and hand techniques of the kickboxer seem so much more effective than those of Kung Fu and Karate? "

They’re not.

"The ring is a ring and outworld is well…outworld. "

Outworld? LOL are cyrax and liu kang outside fighting? :smiley:

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Re: Question

Originally posted by Choke
[B]To the boxers and kickboxers out there - How much of your training do you spend developing skills for the ring ie., developing techs that are allowable in a tournament etc, and how much spent aimed at developing skills to neutralize an attacker (who may come at you with any attack imaginable) quickly and efficiently with minimal damage to oneself?

I’m not disrespecting anyone or any style here I’m just truly curious as to how you go about your training in a style aimed at ring fighting. [/B]

It’s the same… take muay thai for instance. knees and elbows are allowed. they (at least we didn’t) do scenario based, “what if” tyhpe training, but, knowing how to knee and elbow properly, controlling the opponent, etc. all translates pretty well on the street. If you are referring to weapons and multiple attackers, run. same as any student of any style should do.

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Originally posted by Xebsball
[B]

They seem? You’re [size=4]WRONG[/size], they’re not.

Maybe, if your point is asking if kung fu guys are supposed to use kung fu techniques when they fight yes they are. [/B]

This response isn’t necessarily towards you Xebsball, its to most of the responses thusfar..

I have yet to see a Karate or Kung Fu exponent use their respective techniques in a fight. And yes, I was a Karateka for 8 years, so I know what traditional arts ideally look like, and what they look like when someone rushes in and starts wailing on you. Just look at that tape of Bozepte(sp?) and Bill Chueng. Two high level Kung Fu exponents who entered a slap-fest when the $#!@ hit the fan.

I haven’t seen anyone in any confrontation (real life, or tape) use a reverse punch or a shuto, or a knife hand to put someone away. All I see, and continue to see are Kickboxers and other sport fighters whipping up on TMA exponents because it seems that their training is lacking in some key departments.

Am I saying that TMA isn’t worth undertaking, or practicing? Of course not. But I think its foolish to pretend that since TMA artists are doing old-school MA, somehow their training is equal or better than that of Kickboxers by default.

Also, I’d like to point out that the web is teeming with videos of TMA stylists getting clobbered by Kickboxers, Wrestlers, and the like. Can anyone provide evidence to the contrary?

Once again, no disrespect, but it seems that when it comes down to it, Kung Fu and Karate seem kind of useless.

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I have yet to see a Karate or Kung Fu exponent use their respective techniques in a fight. And yes, I was a Karateka for 8 years, so I know what traditional arts ideally look like, and what they look like when someone rushes in and starts wailing on you. Just look at that tape of Bozepte(sp?) and Bill Chueng. Two high level Kung Fu exponents who entered a slap-fest when the $#!@ hit the fan.

If you did Karate for 8 years and when you fought you looked like something other than it (read kickboxing if you will) all i can do is feel sorry for you. I saw that clip, Boztepe wrestled for quite some time, so its expected that he uses such a takedown and finishes it on the ground. Since he is not a pure Wing Chun fighter exclusively it is expected that what he does in fighting isnt 100% Wing Chun. Also, depends on who you ask they are not really high level. Cheungs response to me didnt represent high level to me. At least from the short clip i saw.

I haven’t seen anyone in any confrontation (real life, or tape) use a reverse punch or a shuto, or a knife hand to put someone away. All I see, and continue to see are Kickboxers and other sport fighters whipping up on TMA exponents because it seems that their training is lacking in some key departments.

Oh really? Well i use the tradicional techniques of my style. I dont have tried on other styles, but other people from my school have and they did good.

Am I saying that TMA is useless? Of course not. But I think its foolish to pretend that since TMA artists are doing old-school MA, somehow their training is equal or better than that of Kickboxers by default.

I think its foolish to talk about something you dont know, REAL Tradicional MA in this case.

Also, I’d like to point out that the web is teeming with videos of TMA stylists getting clobbered by Kickboxers, Wrestlers, and the like. Can anyone provide evidence to the contrary?

All i see is some unskilled ****ers getting beat. You are short minded to think they represent us.

Once again, no disrespect, but it seems that when it comes down to it, Kung Fu and Karate seem kind of useless.

Definately not useless for me.
Saying it just the same way you did “No disrespect”, but what i think has indeed become useless is your presence on this forum.
Maybe you dont know but we are used to your type here. Same old blah blah blah my mma defeat your tma blah blah blah.
It reaches a point when here we call indiduals such as you TROLLS
Seriously, what kind of dumb **** have the briliant idea of coming into a kung fu forum just to tell how superior mma or whatever the **** you do is superior.

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Originally posted by Xebsball
[B]

If you did Karate for 8 years and when you fought you looked like something other than it (read kickboxing if you will) all i can do is feel sorry for you. I saw that clip, Boztepe wrestled for quite some time, so its expected that he uses such a takedown and finishes it on the ground. Since he is not a pure Wing Chun fighter exclusively it is expected that what he does in fighting isnt 100% Wing Chun. Also, depends on who you ask they are not really high level. Cheungs response to me didnt represent high level to me. At least from the short clip i saw.[/B]

Did I say anything about how I look when I fight? No. I’ve seen many black belts/sashes who get into slap fests when they get attacked, that’s all I was saying. Hell, take a look at the full contact Sabaki challenge, or the tournament in Fighting Black Kings. In both of those high level Karate and Kung Fu exponents looked like nothing more than sloppy kickboxers. I used the Boztepe/Cheung example to show that even high level Kung Fu exponents are guilty of the same thing. Hell, Cheung is a respected GM for god’s sake.

Oh really? Well i use the tradicional techniques of my style. I dont have tried on other styles, but other people from my school have and they did good.

Sure you do. I’m sure that unlike Cheung, and countless other Kung Fu exponents who got their butts kicked by boxers, wrestlers, etc., you look like Bruce Lee when you throw down. :rolleyes:

Saying what you said is no better than when people say that “Fu man Chu in the year 1800 beat down an entire Manchu army on the banks of the Yellow river.” However, the difference is that I have evidence to back up what I’m saying, you don’t, you just have fanciful stories and old wive’s tales.

I think its foolish to talk about something you dont know, REAL Tradicional MA in this case.

And here we go again with more nonsense. I did a very traditional style of karate for a long time. I know a lot about traditional MAs, since the early part of my training revolved around the TMA world. I was exposed to several TMA practioners who were quite good at what they did. So please, spare me the elitist TMA attitude. Its truly nonsense.

All i see is some unskilled ****ers getting beat. You are short minded to think they represent us.

Here’s another excuse. These guys were unskilled, but I don’t see “masters” like yourself stepping up to the plate and proving you’re the real deal. So in that respect, those “unskilled ****ers” who took a beat down in the name of their art are ten times the martial artist you are.

Definately not useless for me.
Saying it just the same way you did “No disrespect”, but what i think has indeed become useless is your presence on this forum.
Maybe you dont know but we are used to your type here. Same old blah blah blah my mma defeat your tma blah blah blah.
It reaches a point when here we call indiduals such as you TROLLS
Seriously, what kind of dumb **** have the briliant idea of coming into a kung fu forum just to tell how superior mma or whatever the **** you do is superior.

I never said what I do is superior. I never even mentioned what style I’m taking now. You’re just making a stupid assumption because you can’t formulate a real counter response to my initial post.

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Here’s another excuse. These guys were unskilled, but I don’t see “masters” like yourself stepping up to the plate and proving you’re the real deal. So in that respect, those “unskilled ****ers” who took a beat down in the name of their art are ten times the martial artist you are.

When did i say i am a master huh? Who is making assumpions now? ARE YOU STUPID?
If by stepping on the plate you mean fighting on tournaments how about this: i dont wanna fight in tournaments, simply becouse it would be pointless for me. If i want to fight someone i just do, dont have to get in a cage for that.
Being a martial artist has nothing to do with getting in a cage, that is what dumb ****s like you think. That is sport.
Saying it real slow in a way you can understand:
Sport different than Martial Art

I never said what I do is superior. I never even mentioned what style I’m taking now. You’re just making a stupid assumption because you can’t formulate a real counter response to my initial post.

I simply didnt formulate “a real counter response” to your initial post becouse i thought your first post was simply [size=4]PATHETIC AND NOT WORTH A DECENT RESPONSE.[/size]

Retarded ****, read better:
“Seriously, what kind of dumb **** have the briliant idea of coming into a kung fu forum just to tell how superior mma or whatever the **** you do is superior.”

now mma = includes kickboxing, boxing, etc
You said in your first post on this thread:

Also, why is it that the foot and hand techniques of the kickboxer seem so much more effective than those of Kung Fu and Karate?

more effective = superior
So you really didnt claim that nothing was superior to anything really, nah! :rolleyes:

[size=4]YOU ARE MERCIFULLY FREE OF THE RAVAGES OF INTELLIGENCE.[/size]

Your accusations are [size=4]WRONG, SNEAKY, HERECTIC and DIRTY[/size], with the only objective of causing [size=4]INTRIGUE and DISCORD[/size]

One more thing, you dont have enough [size=4]MORAL STATURE[/size] to direct your filthy rotten putrid smelly mouth at me to say such [size=4]USELESS, POINTLESS, ED UP BULL[/size] as you on this thread saying.

[size=4]Now you can get back to jacking off to your favourite UFC tapes, i wont bother to answer the **** you come with such as this thread.[/size]

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LOL @ this thread

If you train to fight then you will learn how to fight. Simple as that.

Boxers and kickboxers train specifically to beat the **** out of people and that’s why they are good at it.

oh the humanity