I’ve heard this phrase thrown around on this forum. Whenever it seems a traditionalist gets hit in sparring or in competion he somehow “degrades” into kickboxing (bouncing, hands in boxing guard) instead of fighting like his style has taught him to. I never liked this phrase but why do you think that it happens?
I have never seen the term “degrading” as you mention. I have seen “bad kickboxing” instead many times. It is very appropriate because when a Kung Fu practitioner who is not properly trained encounter some big troubles in a fight,he will naturaly fall into some aproximate boxing exactly like 8 years old kids do when they happen to fight at school.
You want to talk about the lack of “resisting opponents” or muay thai or something similar?..You want to talk about sport/ring fighting when 99% of kung Fu people are not training with that goal in mind?..Or what?..
I think it mostly has to do with ego and not willing to dmit to themselves that their style is not infallible.
Also too many “MA” think that their style needs to look like what they see in the movies.
See below an excerpt from Taiji students that observed Chen Fa ke for the first time and their reactions in relation to what they were taught.
In the beginnings of my Wu style Taijiquan studies, teacher Liu (i.e. Liu Musan) told me, that the slower the movements, the better the skill, that is: the better the skill, the slower one can practice. When teacher Chen came for the first time to teacher Liu’s house, after exchanging the greetings, he (i.e. Chen Fake) performed the First and the Second Routine of Chen style Boxing; everybody prepared over an hour to admire famous master’s art. Unexpectedly the demonstration of both routines took only several minutes, and the Second Routine contained some leaping and very fast movements, and Chen’s stamping shook tiles on the roof. Teacher Chen sat (with us) for a while after the demonstration and then left. Afterwards everybody was making comments - some said Chen practiced so fast, that considering the principle “move like pulling the silk” the silk would tear; some said stamping did not conform with the rule of “taking steps like a cat”. However teacher Liu said: “Although the movements were fast, they were all round; although the power was issued, he was still relaxed; since we invited him, we should learn; after we learn the routine, we ask him to teach Pushing Hands; if he is better than I, then we continue to learn the Second Routine”. Hearing this we all decided to study with Chen Fake.
The first question I asked teacher Chen when we started out study was “Should the movements be slow or fast?”. The teacher answered: “The beginners should practice slowly, so that the movements are correct. Practice makes perfect, so after long time one can naturally be fast and steady; when fighting the speed of the movements depends on the opponent’s speed; practicing slowly is the method to learn the boxing, but it is not the goal. However when movements are slow, the legs are exercised for a longer time, which is also beneficial.” Since that moment I kept my mind on my study. However the way I was learning is worth mentioning, so I’m writing it below for reference.
Well… kickboxing and other sport or modern martial arts are basically “low-level.” This means they’re very basic and there’s no skill involved; like two kids fighting. Traditional arts, especially chinese ones, are very “high-level” - basically, alot better. But if someone who is high-level has something holding him back, he’s going to look low-level… just like if someone low-level has something holding him back, he’s gonna look even stupider. And the main thing holding back chinese martial artists is that they have to be really carefull not to kill their opponents during sparring, or if they stoop to the crude level of sport fighting for some reason. Basically, they have to hold back all their best techniques for fear of killing their opponent… it’s like fighting with one hand behind your back, so obviously they look worse… and since kickboxing is worse, they look like kickboxing. I think that about covers it.
Well… kickboxing and other sport or modern martial arts are basically “low-level.” This means they’re very basic and there’s no skill involved; like two kids fighting. Traditional arts, especially chinese ones, are very “high-level” - basically, alot better. But if someone who is high-level has something holding him back, he’s going to look low-level… just like if someone low-level has something holding him back, he’s gonna look even stupider. And the main thing holding back chinese martial artists is that they have to be really carefull not to kill their opponents during sparring, or if they stoop to the crude level of sport fighting for some reason. Basically, they have to hold back all their best techniques for fear of killing their opponent… it’s like fighting with one hand behind your back, so obviously they look worse… and since kickboxing is worse, they look like kickboxing. I think that about covers it.
Bullshiit.
Fighting looks like fighting. Always.
Im probably being trolled, but it has to be said. Just in case.
:eek:
LMAO at that last post! Heheheh:cool:
LOL @ Christopher M… that is truly classic
Christopher M
Very good explanation, except you forgot one distinction. ‘Internal’ CMA are even higher level than ‘external’ ones, so for an internal practitioner to stoop to kickboxing is an even worse fall from grace. 
The term thrown around here is “reverting to kickboxing” But, how can you revert to something you’ve never trained in? All you are reverting to is sloppy fighting, not kickboxing.
Originally posted by Christopher M
Well… kickboxing and other sport or modern martial arts are basically “low-level.” This means they’re very basic and there’s no skill involved; like two kids fighting. Traditional arts, especially chinese ones, are very “high-level” - basically, alot better. But if someone who is high-level has something holding him back, he’s going to look low-level… just like if someone low-level has something holding him back, he’s gonna look even stupider. And the main thing holding back chinese martial artists is that they have to be really carefull not to kill their opponents during sparring, or if they stoop to the crude level of sport fighting for some reason. Basically, they have to hold back all their best techniques for fear of killing their opponent… it’s like fighting with one hand behind your back, so obviously they look worse… and since kickboxing is worse, they look like kickboxing. I think that about covers it.
ROFL:D
Christopher M has kidnapped the Correct and sodomized it with a sharp stick.
Please show me a fvcking San Shou bout that doesn’t look like kickboxing…thanks
Please show me a fvcking San Shou bout that doesn’t look like kickboxing…thanks
Well, I don’t see normal kickboxers throwing people… CMA styles have punches and kicks too… not sure what exactly what everyone’s looking for.
LOL Brad, ok… show me a San Shou fight that doesn’t look like Kickboxing + Wrestling or any other combat sport. Show me a San Shou fight that doesn’t “degrade to kickboxing”.
Edit: Cung Le is an awesome fighter… too bad he isn’t good enough to use anything other than low-level Kung Fu …haha
You guys are really funny
I still get confused by the term, lol. CMA is basically kicks + punches + throws + chin na(joint locks/manipulation, etc.). Kickboxing looks like basic Chinese Martial Arts 
In the CMA styles I’ve practiced there were roundhouse kicks, back kicks, spinning kicks, front thrust kicks, side thrust kicks, jabs, hooks, upercuts, knees, elbows, etc. basically everything that’s legal under various kickboxing formats. Cung Le looks like an example of what good kungfu to me should look like in a ring enviroment(even though technically he’s a mixed martial artist I guess). Watching the Cung Le vs Rudi Ott clip, he mostly stays rooted to the ground, looks relaxed, doesn’t bounce around on the balls of his feet when throwing a technique, had good power & speed in his movements, and can take a hit 
SevenStar noted, how can you revert to something you’ve never trained in; which is a very good point. However, when you look at it a little closer fighter’s aren’t really reverting; instead they are adapting to what is thrown at them. If you get punched in the head enough hopefully you are going to learn to keep your hands up in a guard. If you can’t seem to time your strikes you start to shift your weight on the balls of your feet and sometimes “bounce”. Techniques that are low percentage will almost never be attempted and you’ll use the most basic and simple means to defend yourself.
It really seems to me that the “kickboxing” style is the most natural way for most people to strike. Why don’t people fight like a snakes? why don’t people fight like cranes or other animals. Well that’s because we’re are human beings with 2 legs and 2 arms and we should really study the most efficent and natural way for us.
“Kickboxing looks like basic Chinese Martial Arts”
From what I have seen I think Cung Le is one of the best fighters in the world…regardless of rules or styles. I’m sure no one on here would agree with that since he only uses low-level Kung Fu.
You can revert to something you never trained in because it is part of the cultural environment. Boxing is very natural for an occidental .As I said before,you will see little kids “reverting” to it .The same with wrestling. We imitate .That’s all. That must be the real “monkey style” 
Hi all,
From what I’ve seen, when some kung fu guys get in the ring, they take a hit in the face and just don’t let it go. It sticks with them and they think, “I should have used this block, I should have attacked this way,” and when that happens, they’ve already lost. The reason they seem to “revert” to kickboxing is because that’s what they see in the movies, and they MIGHT have the biased belief that kickboxing is something they somehow “know” just because they know something they consider to be “better”, whatever that means. So while some are probably trying to revert to what they think will work (of course, no matter how much they look like a kickboxer outside of striking distance, they’re terrible once they’re in range to attack, from what I’ve seen), others just throw their training out the window because they’re too busy thinking of their training and not how to actually use it. Of course, I might be wrong about the majority of people, but I’ve seen anecdotal evidence of both cases more than once.
In either case, it seems to come from a lack of trust in the system, which stems from everyone’s desire to believe that THEY didn’t make the mistake, but that the method is at fault. No one wants to accept that they have to get hit in the face sometime, no matter how good they are!
Originally posted by truewrestler
Please show me a fvcking San Shou bout that doesn’t look like kickboxing…thanks
Saw a great one live in a shoot tournament last year… posted about it before cos it was so great and so unbelievable but…
really cool Chinese dood, dunno what style he did (being in Japan it just said ‘kungfu’ anyway), got a complete ridiculing because he was Chinese (all the Bruce Lee noises etc) from the crowd, then proceeded to kick the **** out of two opponents, followed by taking the final into an extra round, which he lost on points, despite the whole crowd by this time shouting for against the decision…
his stance was low, and mostly a back-weighted or side stance with one leg in the air (!!!), his speed was awesome (his reaction to throws was to flip back up), his timing impeccable (his opponents couldn’t sweep him), his foot power was horrible (a lot of stop kicks to the leading legs, followed by high kicks to the head/mostly the body on the bounce), his clinch work was excellent (ie get out and kick punch/or stay in and throw/sweep), his sweeps/throws were superb (in fact the judges’ decision went against his throws cos they weren’t considered clean by anyone except all of the audience and by the state of him, his opponent - think the judges were not used to judging anything but stand-up)… and it looked nothing like kickboxing, even against the kickboxer…
problems: can’t remember his name, John Chow/Chan/Chong/any other generic Ch name here :rolleyes:; can’t remember the date (summer); can’t remember the venue (not a usual MMA venue); can’t remember the name of the tournament or the promoters (it was small, and one of the promoters killed himself later in the year, so it’s unlikely to be repeated: but it did have some reasonably named fighters in it like Jeremy Horne); have no ****ing video…
so I guess that means it didn’t happen… big phat :rolleyes:!!! No, the record is there, just depends on if you know how to find it…! I’ll ask my friend who may or may not remember cos he got his head taken off that day, but that doesn’t mean you’re gonna believe him, a pro-fighter, anyway does it… ?:rolleyes:
**** proof anyway, it’s overrated, just ask George Tony Blush!