In Chinese MA, forms are for the most part solo exercises, with partner sets existing as complements to the solo exercises. In Japanese MA, the “forms” or katas are, for the most part, paired exercises with specific roles for the attacker and defender (uke and nage) - this is excepting Karate, I’m referring mostly to jujutsu style arts. Which of these two approaches do you think results in a faster fighting skill? Note that my question is not about which is a better way or who is better or what art is better, etc. My question refers only to the speed and pace at which a practitioner will pick up fighting skills. Thanks.
Paired forms will result in a slightly better understanding of how a technique might work against an opponent with some resistance etc introduced. A solo form will allow you to refine technique but won’t show you how to apply the forces required to successfully use the technique. I don’t know that either would result in a better fighter - sparring is the best way to achieve that 
First, it doesn’t matter if it’s one set or 20, you’ll only ever say “kata.”
Second, there’s a kick-arse article here .
Originally posted by Vash
[B]First, it doesn’t matter if it’s one set or 20, you’ll only ever say “kata.”
Second, there’s a kick-arse article here . [/B]
Good article - I will read it a little more later. I am familiar with the training techniques he talks about as I practice the same art.
Those exercises teach you how to use your technique and how best to issue power, however they do not necessarily improve your fighting ability. As I said before, only sparring is going to do that.
- Paired drills, involving an uke and nage/tori in preset roles have usually been distinct from paired kata in the JMA I’ve taken (aikido, kendo, a little jujutsu, karate). Paired kata are to teach preset response, and to accustom the user to hard physical contact, whereas paired drills are to teach varying response to varying degrees of force, resistance, angles etc.
So, I would say developmentally, the paired kata should come first and should be progressively cut down as understanding increases, then paired drills, then at some point freestyle should be introduced.
Obviously, this is assuming that you are learning a style that uses all three approaches. Personally, I wouldn’t spend so much time on paired kata, and would introduce freestyle asap to speed up the learning process.
In all of the schools I’ve been to that use English they’ve used the word ‘technique’ for what I’m calling paired drills. In the Japanese schools they’ve used the words ‘waza’ (‘technique’!), ‘renshuu’ (‘practice’/‘drill’!) or ‘keiko’ (‘drill’/‘practice’!), or they have specific names (eg ‘kiri kaeshi’ in kendo)
- I think all of the wing chun schools I’ve been to have used paired drills. So did the hung gar school I checked out for a wee bit.
Why is it so important to “speed up the learning process”?
I was just answering Falcor’s question. :shrugs:
But since you ask, so you can use your skills effectively in a competition before you get too old if that’s your bag, or when you get jumped by whoever on the way home from wherever without 25 years of practice. I would suggest :shrugs: again.
I’m in it for life anyway, and have been in it for all of my adult years so I don’t care particularly. Depends on your reasons for learning I’d say.
I prefer the short, single technique forms. I’m working form and application at the same time, and I can repeatedly drill the exactl technique I will be using in a fight, competition, etc.
That said, I don’t think that that alone will make you develop faster - I’d expect a judo guy to develop faster than the avg. TJJ guy.
Originally posted by Fu-Pau
Why is it so important to “speed up the learning process”?
-
competiton
-
self defense. If it takes me years to become proficient, what happens when I’m attacked after only a few months of training?
And, it’s not “speeding up the learning process” it’s being more efficient. if you and falcor are learning the same style, and falcor is doing drills and such which will give him usable skill in a more reasonable time, but you are ultimately learning the same things, who has the advantage?
This is the heart of KFO’s mma vs tma debate…
OK I know I’m a boring old fart and nobody reads my posts, but didn’t I just say the exact same thing…?
:mad:
And yeah, I’m not advocating solely kata/drills without accompanying freestyle sparring, randori, jiyugiko or whatever…
its not an easy question to say ‘which method is best or fastest’ as they are doing different things.
the single person forms in our school, mizong quan - lost track boxing, are against multiple opponents, whereas two man forms are against a single opponent.
single man forms are better for footwork and technique (as they normally have far more movement and much more varied techniques) while two man forms are better for timing (although good timing is needed in a single man form to do it correctly), conditioning and mental sharpness.
our website
Stimulant, don’t follow your logic that solo forms are better for footwork than other drills/two-person forms. I don’t do solo forms for footwork. If I want to practise footwork I’d much rather practise with a big live obstacle to move round and to test my balance while I am or he is delivering strikes etc.
Of course solo footwork practice has its place, but I wouldn’t have said that was the main emphasis of my solo forms.
Also, I’ve seen the statement many times that paired kata are good for timing, and I don’t agree at all. If by timing you mean, getting you used to putting your arms and legs in a useful position quickly in repsonse to someone else, fine, but I take timing to mean the whole rhythm of a fight/session: your rhythm, your opponent’s rhythm, the patterns and lack thereof, and changes thereof. Sometimes it’s faster to go slower. haven’t got time to explain thhis now, but.
To me timing is trained only with sparring/other live drills. Otherwise it’s too mechanical: action, reaction, action, reaction etc.
Originally posted by Mat
[B]OK I know I’m a boring old fart and nobody reads my posts, but didn’t I just say the exact same thing…?
And yeah, I’m not advocating solely kata/drills without accompanying freestyle sparring, randori, jiyugiko or whatever… [/B]
shaddup ya boring old ****!
Originally posted by Mat
[B]Stimulant, don’t follow your logic that solo forms are better for footwork than other drills/two-person forms. I don’t do solo forms for footwork. If I want to practise footwork I’d much rather practise with a big live obstacle to move round and to test my balance while I am or he is delivering strikes etc.
Of course solo footwork practice has its place, but I wouldn’t have said that was the main emphasis of my solo forms.
Also, I’ve seen the statement many times that paired kata are good for timing, and I don’t agree at all. If by timing you mean, getting you used to putting your arms and legs in a useful position quickly in repsonse to someone else, fine, but I take timing to mean the whole rhythm of a fight/session: your rhythm, your opponent’s rhythm, the patterns and lack thereof, and changes thereof. Sometimes it’s faster to go slower. haven’t got time to explain thhis now, but.
To me timing is trained only with sparring/other live drills. Otherwise it’s too mechanical: action, reaction, action, reaction etc. [/B]
Well foot work in single man forms is abundant than most two man forms as (in a vast amount of styles) they aredelaing with multipile attackers. The foot work in in two man forms is also very important…but to me it lacks the ‘awareness’ that exists in single man forms as all the concentration is on the one antaganist.
Timing in single man forms is vital for the form itself, but the timing in two man forms is more important practical for getting your blocks in the right place and attacks / counters right.
Often hard to make yourself clear here unless go into 101% detail!
any disagrements with what I’ve just said…I would be interested to read anothers perspective on it.
Originally posted by stimulant
[B]
Timing in single man forms is vital for the form itself, but the timing in two man forms is more important practical for getting your blocks in the right place and attacks / counters right.
any disagrements with what I’ve just said…I would be interested to read anothers perspective on it. [/B]
As Mat said, timing in a two man form is too mechanical - rhytm isn’t broken or varied - set attack, set speed, etc. drilling and sparring would serve better to develop timing…
Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]
As Mat said, timing in a two man form is too mechanical - rhytm isn’t broken or varied - set attack, set speed, etc. drilling and sparring would serve better to develop timing… [/B]
FWIW, Hsing-Ie and Hua stylists have two man sets. While they are intially taught without a break in the rhythm etc, until the moves are ingrained, in order to improve timing etc one must vary their partners and they must alos vary the speed etc so one’s reaction time will improve. In my opinion, this is better than solo forms, on par with drilling, but still inferior to free sparring.
Plus as Seven is probably gonna say if he stays awake…!
…
Originally posted by stimulant
[B]
Well foot work in single man forms is abundant than most two man forms as (in a vast amount of styles) they aredelaing with multipile attackers.
[/b]OK, look around carefully next time you do this form. Concentrate. how many people are there? When you’ve finished, count the bodies.
How many people have you dealt with?
OK, next test… take a move from your form. Just a simple one, moving from one stance to another. Now get a member of your class to push you in the middle. Then get them to punch you half way through. Or kick one of your legs. Just gently.
Now there are real people interacting with you and interrupting you. You will find that the movement of your body is very very different.
Forms ‘dealing with multiple attackers’ are good for visualization, but they will not enable you to deal with multiple attackers in reality will they? Unless the attackers are coming in with set movements from set directions.
Solo forms are good for practising balance and basic movement but when you can do them without falling over ( ) you should probably augment them with work with other people!
Also, esp with the style exp you have listed, I find it odd that you are making the claim that most solo forms are for dealing with multiple opponents. There are many forms for energy development and for basic postures and positions, and I would say not so many for scores of attackers from the local Aikido School of Scooby-Doo Villain Attacks.
The foot work in in two man forms is also very important…but to me it lacks the ‘awareness’ that exists in single man forms as all the concentration is on the one antaganist.
Again, you’re talking about
awareness of people that don’t exist! In medicine, the word for that is psychosis!!!
Timing in single man forms is vital for the form itself, but the timing in two man forms is more important practical for getting your blocks in the right place and attacks / counters right.
Fine, but it’s a moot point: you’re not going to develop good timing for a fight by doing any kind of forms or other exercises with set patterns. Some drill work with varied speeds and angles, and the rest has gotta be sparring. Forms are not for timing. maybe for speed so you can do a movement without landing on your backside… but.
any disagrements with what I’ve just said…I would be interested to read anothers perspective on it.
Cheers. I think this subject has had a lot of coverage here on many other threads, but it’s always kinda interesting to get someone interested in discussion rather than slanging!
Judge Pen, I know what you mean, but I would say that kind of set is not on a par with drilling if the number of moves is excessive.
KISS drills using one or two or maybe three natural follow on attacks seem to make more sense than even a varied speed and power form consisting of many moves in sequence. But then, I haven’t practised those styles.
Originally posted by Mat
Plus as Seven is probably gonna say if he stays awake…!
…
Didn’t make it. I trained some, then sat on the couch with the intention of coming back to the PC…
Mat, some good points, but we’re going to have to agree to disagree…but I thinkits more ot do with different styles as opposed to being right or wrong.
your point about having a friend push or kick during a form is invalid. In no single man form I know of do you ever imagaine being hit by an opponent. so the push / kick would be blocked, evaded, counter attacked etc. By adding something extra into the the form you are changing it. not sure if I’ve made my self clear, but I hope you get what I mean. Sure people will NEVER attack you one after the opther with the exact same attacks and order as any of the forms you know…but single man forms with multiple attackers make you move form one to another to another with speed, and flow. They also should build good power. and technique if done correctly.
Obviously there is the lack of resistence of a two man form, which is disadvantages in the short term, but with skill it is advantages in the long term as it will build technique and stop relience on strength.
Footwork from single man forms is vital forms. I conceed the point about energy development…but those forms are (in my view) inpractical in a fight (obvisouily energy development forms with fighting application are different such as Taiqi etc)!
I really hope this works as I’ve tried 3 times to post a really indepth reply already…and it failed…too lazy to write so much now!