Hi all, there seems to be an awful lot of forms bashing going on these days, before you roast my pants, after I say that forms training is good, hear me out, also I believe you need sparring and two man drills. Forms are great cardiovascular exercise, forms can develop your form…really who knew? Forms are similar to shadow boxing, forms also give you a way to remember techniques. Forms training with proper visualization gives you a way to train something when you dont have a partner or any equipment. Everyone seems to think these days that either you do forms or you do sparring, but not both, that is black and white, most of life is shades of gray…the yin yang symbol to me is representative of different shades of gray not black and white.
I agree with this, but like anything it’s HOW you do it. How I see people doing form today, a la Wushu, it’s empty.
I see you do taiji. I practice pong back and forth. Walking back and forth. I make sure the foot and hip sent the hand out via the entire body, every and all sections. I train that one piece of the form over and over to ingrain the lesson and connectedness in me.
I don’t consider that form training, I consider it mechanics.
I see lots of taji people doing the whole form and it’s obvious their teacher didn’t teach them right, they lack the connection, they’re power, when they want to show it, is tense. Because they have just the arm doing work. When you have foot, ankle, knee, hip, thight, waist, rib, shoulder, back, elbow, forearm, wrist, fingers … everyone can take it easy.
That’s form! Fighting off the evil Manchu army at the doors of shaolin is a waist of time unless you want to just be a performer.
It’s not what you do, it’s how you do it. I how I see most people doing form is baseless. They get nothing out of it. And before anyone goes roasting my pants, consider how few Kung Fu fighters there are and then ask why.
form is shape, they are not the best cv workout in a lot of respects simply because a lot of the motion is anaerobic in nature depending on what you’re doing. They have some value, but there are probably more efficient ways to do aerobics exercise, such as spinning, treadmill, eliptical etc etc.
But then, forms aren’t designed for aerobic training, they have a different function with taht only being a side effect if the form is particularly demanding of the cv system.
sets are used to develop structure and balance in motion while defending and attacking. when that shape has been gotten into you, you need to afterwards pressure test it and get some force feedback to ensure that you are executing correctly. when you determine the correct execution, you replace that change into the form where you had a basic shape but you did not have the structure.
forms training has benefit, but if you are training to be a fighter, they have limited function at the beginning. There are much more important things to develop before choreographed fighting ensues.
even boxers don’t shadow box until after they know how to move.
so forms training is good, it’s fun and it’s certainly not as boring as lifting weights and running oin a treadmill.
for fighting, they don’t teach you anything until you actually apply the techniques. All techniques should be extrapolated from teh forms of your system if you are goin gto be true to your style and use it. stick with teh most basic of the techniques and you’ll get a higher percent of success in appliucation of same.
forms need to be regarded for hwat they are. a training tool. to much focus on them and you will lose sight of the orest for the trees. they are good for maintanance, they are good for learning co-ordination and body balance, they can help build functional strength and will get you in tune with your body as a whole. They certainly aren’t the only method of doing this, but they are a valid method.
whatever floats your boat is my rule of thumb and I’ll use those things that work for me and have results i can see and measure.
the sequences of form are but a small piece of the pie.
many people have different ideas in mind when they hear the word “form”
to me, if you practice a basic drill, say a punch drill, if you do this with correct mechanics, ie: form. then this is form training to me.
the form of the technique you are doing. its shape, its mechanics, the whole deal.
sometimes we connect our forms, and create a sequence of them. a set of forms.
we all take the mess life gives us, and we interperate it the way it best makes sense to us. for some of us, we enjoy the learning of form and the practice of it.
some of us feel we gain benefit, some of us do not. some of us like to eat brocolli, others eat asparagus.
Individual movments are just letters of the alphabet.
Sets are those letters formed into words to create sentances.
Quote that if you like…
why would i quote that, i brought the concept in a few threads ago on teh same topic. 
plagerize me if you want.
likewise, you may say a word just as well as myself, yet it may sound different, accented.
if even we speak the same language, we may use it differently.
the great wonder of variance.
LOL ahh come on. I thought that was original. I use languages and how we learn them as metaphors all the time, that and guitar lessons.. long story
Figures you beat me to it David… we must think alike
You can study three or four sentences, maybe even a thousand, and hope they can carry you through every conversation you’ll ever have, in every part of the world…
Or you can study vowels and how they and consonants form words and understand the root of language.
Understand mechanics, leverage, position and shielding and you can play with everybody.
Training form as set patterns leading into one another is a bad habit … free thinking attackers don’t fit into your form. Better to train all the attributes and then make yourself calm in the face of a foe so you can respond appropriately. Form does neither.
I’m actually eatting brocilli and asparagus right now!!
In terms of training, if you don’t have long term endurance, as well as quick short explosive endurance, then you are lacking. The anareobic benefits of quick forms are integral, and imperative to fighting/self-defense. It is much more important to go three minutes full tilt than to do an hour at a soft slow pace. Likewise, if your body can’t handle the rigors of repeating that three minutes, or whatever duration then you might get winded quite fast.
The nature of fighting being anaerobic, I can’t understand why that component of forms training would be a downside. In terms of physical preperation, it seems exactly what the doctor ordered!
etaphors and analogy comes easier with age. You get to see a lot ofthings and make the comparisons by that point.
as i get older, i will borrow or come up with even better analogies in my attempts to communicate.
Funny how those things get used to help understanding when they are otherwise completely unrelated realistically speaking most times.
using language as the metaphor.
you will not be fluent unless you, through diligence, practice ALL aspects of the spoken word.
This is exactly what I am talking about
As soon as someone mentions form these days, even if they mention sparring etc. in the same breath, all that is heard is FORM and nothing else, like they dont even read the post, but just assume that if you even mention form you dont train anything else, does no one else see this? Forms are also handy for codifying the movements for transmission to others. I think there is too much emphasis on form or set training in CMA today, part of that might be the fault of tournaments that encourage only form training. Part is due to bogus Sifu that only know forms. But to assume that training forms automatically makes you suck, is just as wrong. And sounds like the opinion of those who think the UFC is the end all be all of martial arts and will be the most effective style in real life, it isnt and its not, I think anyone who knows anything realizes that the UFC is a sport put together specifically to showcase Gracie JuJitsu and the rules reflect that. What was the name of the Gracie who broke his knee going to the ground against a mugger on the street? Reality is that you have at max 30 seconds on the ground before his friends start kicking and stomping you in the face, maybe not even that long as they may attack in a pack from the get-go. It is hard to wrestle more than one person to the ground at the same time.
not just hard, but **** near impossible.
taichi ironplam…
Its becuase when these guys got thier first taste of kung fu in thier after school program from someone who didnt know how to fight so they taught flashy forms… from that point on they think that everyone who does forms cant fight and thier a waste of time and never spent enought time actually taking the proper amount of time to base thier empty opinons on.
This is the problem when you bring things form other countires and try to get lazy judgmental wannabies who think they know everyting about everthing and dont know thier hole in the ground from thier???
.
hell some of the arts are over 4,000 years old but these same lazy unlearned wannabies will make sweeping assumptions and pass judgment on something they they havent even spent enough time beginning to understand..
reminds me of the kid who says knott tieing is over rated and a complete waste time then you look down and find he has velcro straps on his sneakers..
Would you bother to attempt to argue logic with them???
I’ll wager my face and bodily health if you’d like to compare your 16 years of form with my four years of no form, internal training. Perhaps one of these promoters can include us in a charity match.
I’ll sign any waver allowing you to attack the eyes, groin, any target you choose. No rules, play to the tap or KO.
You said I was talking nonsense; you said I was lieing about my student; and now you’re talking about after school training. Honestly sir, in terms of lineage I come from the rich and famous and your just some backwoods bum.
I let it go but you said one thing too many. Now I’m calling for you to back it up. Let’s compare. Let’s add ourselves to one of these charity cards.
No, we don’t. we just see segmentation. time spent doing forms could also be spent drilling or sparring. time spent doing qigong is time that could be spent doing drills or fighting. time spent learning weapons forms is time that could be spent doing drills or fighting…
Forms are also handy for codifying the movements for transmission to others.
yes, they are.
I think there is too much emphasis on form or set training in CMA today, part of that might be the fault of tournaments that encourage only form training. Part is due to bogus Sifu that only know forms. But to assume that training forms automatically makes you suck, is just as wrong. And sounds like the opinion of those who think the UFC is the end all be all of martial arts and will be the most effective style in real life, it isnt and its not, I think anyone who knows anything realizes that the UFC is a sport put together specifically to showcase Gracie JuJitsu and the rules reflect that.
give 1995 it’s argument back. nobody thinks along those lines anymore. nobody thinks mma is the be all, end all. However, it is one of the better testing grounds that we have. and that’s all we care about. There are a lot of people who have never competed anywhere other than forms or points and run their mouths about what does and doesn’t work based on what someone else told them…
What was the name of the Gracie who broke his knee going to the ground against a mugger on the street?
bah, who cares what his name was? for every mma guy that loses a fight, there are 3 times as many tma who have. that’s just how fighting works. sometimes you win, sometimes you don’t. All you are doing by training is trying to increase your chances of a W.
Reality is that you have at max 30 seconds on the ground before his friends start kicking and stomping you in the face, maybe not even that long as they may attack in a pack from the get-go. It is hard to wrestle more than one person to the ground at the same time.
not really. reality is that whether you are standing or on the ground, multiple attackers are a pain to fight. reality is that not all ground fights result in his buddies stomping you - I haven’t been stomped yet. It may eventually happen, such is life. Reality is that we don’t necessarily WANT to go to the ground all the time. reality is that sometimes you have to go there. reality is that I wouldn’t try to wrestle more than one person down at once. However, I have choked two people unconscious in the same fight. grappling can work in multiple attacker situations, just as stand up can.
Heck, you guys are both in NY - that oughtta be an easy enough match to make happen…
I already checked his web site and mapquested the adress … 7.5 hours. As tempting as it is, I don’t care that much:) But if he wants to meet half way, I’ll rent a car and drive three hours. I’ll gladly add myself to the Coach Ross charity event.
I got two big fights coming up. Any experience is a positive for me.
Kung Fu and ground
I have to say, I find the ground a great place to end a one-on-one challenge matches. You got the guy there, there’s no running away … let skill decide. It cuts the chance of an unlucky shot landing, etc. The ground is fun too.