solo forms vs. paired "katas"

[Mr_Punch]

I’d appreciate it if you gave it another go.

You were talking about timing, now you’re talking about speed and power.

Plus your talk about energy development forms doesn’t seem to make sense. You say tai chi is an energy development form with martial applaication, but I was only talking about martial arts, not some energy development in yoga or something!!! And when you say energy development forms are not practical, are you including sil lum tao and biu jee in wing chun, and bagua circle walking or does the latter not count as a form?

Of course I appreciate the forms you are talking about develop balance and structure, but I’m as soon as your body gets the hang of these in a solo context (and I don’t mean’ becomes expert ’ - just gets the hang of) they should be practised with partners, or drills should be extracted from them for practice in a live setting.

And I still think any but the most passing reference to multiple attackers etc in a solo form is a waste of mental energy, a fallacious and dangerous training aid, and bordering on the very odd indeed!!!

Part kidding of course, but I can’t agree to disagree with you until you’ve made your points a bit clearer!

Cheers.

[stimulant]

it happened yet again…and I’ve come to realise that now I’ve upgraded my pc at home it doesnt allow me to post here…so I have to post from work…

I’m not sure I understand you point about taiqi…taiqi is an amazing martial art if you have the time and dedication for it, the name itself means 'Grand / supreme ultimate fist. I’m talking about traditional taiqi, not the chinese communist party verison. Like with so many other martial arts, traditional taichi is find to find these days, especially yang style. I’m not sure what the relation form taiqi to yoga you were talking about is. I’m not sure about ‘sil lum tao’ (as I’ve never seen it), but biu jee in wing chun, and bagua circle walking have practical fight applications

My comment about energy development in CMA refers to forms were it is all energy development and no martial technique. Many styles have good martial forms with internal sides incorporated in them (my own chosen art included).

My shifu teaches us the same way his father taught him. Lu shifu and his father (the great Lu Zhgen Dou) were mentioned in February’s issue of Kunfu magazine in the Mizong Quan article. His father on several occasions beat more than one armed japanese soliders. And his training was primarily single man forms practise. His father made his name as a street (lei tai) fighter (no rules or gloves competitions) and he also won the first national championships in 1933/4. His skill was so great that the famous chinese warlord Zhang Xueliang (he was famous for organising the kidnapping of the chinese leader Chiang Kai Shek) empolyed him as his personal bodyguard and martial arts teacher. He, my shifu and one of my shifu’s studnets in china have their names in the provincial book of martial heros (kinda like a whos who of kick @ss fighters). The point being that single man forms practise does work…although I do conceed that much time and dedication agian are needed.

If I ask my shifu to train me for competition he will make me do lots of sanda practise (our sanda actually looks like kung-fu!), if I tell him I want ot be a good fighter in the street he will simply tell me to practise forms more!

The point being that single mans forms practise is the bread and butter of these great men. Two man forms and combat drills are, in my view, short term short cuts, but no long term substitute for single man forms training.

I agree that drills and applications should be extracted from forms and practise lots…but not at the expense of the form training itself. It would be like taking an engine out of a car and tunning it but not putting it back in the car again!

[Royal_Dragon]

I think the original assumption that Chinese Kung Fu forms are solo, is false.

They may not be full two man sets, start to finish, but each and every move in them is suposed to be isolated out, and drilled with a partner. They are by definition a long collection of individual two man drills.

Also, I think this is wrong:

The point being that single mans forms practise is the bread and butter of these great men. Two man forms and combat drills are, in my view, short term short cuts, but no long term substitute for single man forms training.

Reply]
Solo forms practice is important, but the two man forms and combat drills are what builds your skill to a higher level. Full free sparring against resisting opponents is what takes you to mastery. Guys that just do forms get smoked by guys who actually fight every time.

[stimulant]

proof of the pudding is in the eating…

many great fighters became so mainly though single man practise…

huo yuan jia (or story says) was not allowed to train by his father, so he spied and copyed the movments…when a challenger came one day beat the other sons young Huo Yuan Jia easily defeated him and so impressed his father that he taught him the rest of his family mizong style…and he had no two man practise at all…

[Royal_Dragon]

Put him in his prime into an MMA ring, and I guarentee he’d get smoked.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by stimulant
[B]proof of the pudding is in the eating…

many great fighters became so mainly though single man practise…

huo yuan jia (or story says) was not allowed to train by his father, so he spied and copyed the movments…when a challenger came one day beat the other sons young Huo Yuan Jia easily defeated him and so impressed his father that he taught him the rest of his family mizong style…and he had no two man practise at all… [/B]

problem is, there’s no way to verify that. I agree with RD though, in his prime, he’d still get smoked in the ring today. I think most athletes of yesteryear would get smoked by those of today though, from bodybuilding, to running to MA.

[yoda]
single man forms practice alone does not a fighter make…
[/yoda]

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]

problem is, there’s no way to verify that. I agree with RD though, in his prime, he’d still get smoked in the ring today. I think most athletes of yesteryear would get smoked by those of today though, from bodybuilding, to running to MA.

[yoda]
single man forms practice alone does not a fighter make…
[/yoda] [/B]
Yeah, but it’s all about context. Jim Brown certainly wouldn’t have averaged 5.4 yards/carry against players like Ray Lewis, but in his day, with his talent, and his training, he was cock of the walk. No one disputes he was great, in fact, people still argue he was the greatest despite not going up against Ray Lewis. Why bust the chops of a fighter from generations past or fault him for not having the advantages of current fighters?

[norther_practitioner]

huo yuan jia (or story says) was not allowed to train by his father, so he spied and copyed the movments…when a challenger came one day beat the other sons young Huo Yuan Jia easily defeated him and so impressed his father that he taught him the rest of his family mizong style…and he had no two man practise at all…

Is it me, or do many lineages have this story somewhere in there…

not that I’m a doubter…

[Royal_Dragon]

I think most athletes of yesteryear would get smoked by those of today though, from bodybuilding, to running to MA.

Reply]
This may be true in many arenas, but in this case I think it’s mostly to do with the fact that practice of forms alone CANNOT make a fighter. The ancient Kung Fu fighters knew this, so they fought to build thier skills. The legands are full of stories like this. Forms only, is a relatively modern thing, maybe in the last 80 years or so.

I’m living proof. During times I have done lots, and lots of sparring and two man work, I could fight rather well. Then during times I had noone, and just did forms, I actually lost fighting abiltity, that was ONLY restored by…you guessed it…sparring again.

Now that all I really do is some Qigong a coupe of times a week, I probably can’t do either. WD’s gonna kill me this spring.

The point is this, we get good at what we do. Yes forms are PART of a good over all Kung Fu training program, but alone, they are little more than good cardio/muscle memory training. They will never do anything more than give you the ability to beat someone whos poorly conditioned. Then, it’s only a win due to superior athletic ability. A skilled fighter will win out over a forms guy everytime.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Yeah, but it’s all about context. Jim Brown certainly wouldn’t have averaged 5.4 yards/carry against players like Ray Lewis, but in his day, with his talent, and his training, he was cock of the walk. No one disputes he was great, in fact, people still argue he was the greatest despite not going up against Ray Lewis. Why bust the chops of a fighter from generations past or fault him for not having the advantages of current fighters?

I’m not busting his chops for being a fighter from back in the day. more power to him, and to the above mentioned athletes. I agree that they were great. I was just agreeing with what RD said.

WhaI would dispute is the story in general. solo forms practice doesn’t make you a fighter. And watching others do the forms and trying to learn them on your own certainly does not. Either that story was a myth, or all of those guys sucked.

I agree with NP too - I’ve heard that same story several times before

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[B]I think most athletes of yesteryear would get smoked by those of today though, from bodybuilding, to running to MA.

Reply]
This may be true in many arenas, but in this case I think it’s mostly to do with the fact that practice of forms alone CANNOT make a fighter. The ancient Kung Fu fighters knew this, so they fought to build thier skills. The legands are full of stories like this. Forms only, is a relatively modern thing, maybe in the last 80 years or so.

I’m living proof. During times I have done lots, and lots of sparring and two man work, I could fight rather well. Then during times I had noone, and just did forms, I actually lost fighting abiltity, that was ONLY restored by…you guessed it…sparring again.

Now that all I really do is some Qigong a coupe of times a week, I probably can’t do either. WD’s gonna kill me this spring.

The point is this, we get good at what we do. Yes forms are PART of a good over all Kung Fu training program, but alone, they are little more than good cardio/muscle memory training. They will never do anything more than give you the ability to beat someone whos poorly conditioned. Then, it’s only a win due to superior athletic ability. A skilled fighter will win out over a forms guy everytime. [/B]

I would attribute it to more than that. With the advances we have today in terms of training, recovery, etc. a fighter of today has definite advantages. If a master of yesterday entered the ring with a pro of today, I’d bet on the pro in most cases.

[norther_practitioner]

One other word I’d like to throw in there…

Diet

A lot of these guys go to diet specialists now a days.. makes a difference. I remember losing 6 lbs of pure fat when I gave up a few things for a couple of weeks after talking to a friend who was a dietician..

I can only imagine how crappy of a diet some of the fighters of years past ate.

[Royal_Dragon]

Ok, your right about the recovery thing especially.

Back in ancient times Chinese masters taught that you should apply your self 70%, every day of your life.

Today we are taught to apply ourselves closer to 100%, but take recovery days. This method does seem to build the body in less time, and on the recovery days you can do skill work, so it’s more efficient in my opinion.

[backbreaker]

I read on a taiji site that when chen fake was a teenager he had a painful lump in his abdomen and he trained diligently in taiji and healed it. I have to go with past masters, due to the multitude of variations of techniques of using footwork like pushing off in the opposite way you’re going, and sometimes redirections in different directions at long distance, circular footwork at close distance, sudden changes at close distance, as well as plain striking with the hip and back at close striking distance(or shoulder or elbow), and qinna( such as going up then down, or left then right) with throws, sweeps and such, and just being able to twist and turn in any direction going high on the opponent and putting structure down on him . I really don’t know though, and never really will.

[SevenStar]

bb, you didn’t list anything that a thai boxer doesn’t do, other than locks and thows - judoka do those, and move the same way. There is no technique advantage…

[backbreaker]

Ah, you’re right. There isn’t, I see now. Being able to turn from side to side freely pushing off each leg first moving the opponent, returning the opponents force, lead him into nothing maintaing center, following his movement to change, squezing inward effortlessly, and keeping control of where you move the opponents center using your whole body, are all impotant in qinna. The way I see it, and that’s just me an expert in nothing, I think there just may be a an advantage in the hip striking and turning the hips and waist, the difference I think being that all parts move seperately but togethe either catching or crushing( or compromising) the opponents structure

[SevenStar]

yeah, sounds like good judo. Not sure what you mean about hip striking though - can you clarify?

[backbreaker]

I just mean turning sideways step in and hit their hip or body with your hip using there forward direction to send it back to them, and it could be used I think in combination with the back or back of shoulder hitting, or other techniques, and shifting the weight of the legs but could be in any direction, the leg of the hitting hip should be connected to the ground or more acuratly sinking downwards . If you can sink back down onto each leg, from left to right , right to leg its good in taiji, if you can’t sink back onto the leg( with would slide the opponent back skidding on the floor) then you need to find some way

[stimulant]

Sorry for the late reply boys and girls…but I can reply from home for some technical unknown reason!

as regard to Hou Yuan Jia

I would love to see him fight today…

but dont know if he would be good, or if he would get beat…

Although the caliber of fighter today is amazing and they have good foundations in all aspects of fighting…

we should look at a few fcats about Hou Yuan Jia…

a) he was never (recorded) beaten

b) he accepted and beat all challenges, even in bad health

c) he not only beat fellow chinese kung-fu…but also

      1. European bare knuckle prize fighters (these guys were real tuff nuts...often boxing till one was knocked out), 
      2. Wrestlers, 
      3. A famous Russian strong man of the time (in fact he beat him and scared him so badly he never returned to china!)
      4. A team of japanese fighters (apparently samurai, but I'm not convinced about that because of the date, - late 1800's / very early 1900's).

he beat the each of the japanese fighters 1 after the other (ment ot have been 5 or 6…differes depending on the source). The problem with the japanese fights story is the differences in stories…one saud after he beat them they attacked him at once and he beat tham all (during his hey day he is rumoured to have beat more than one person at a tiem on several occasions), the other story sayd he was to ill to fight them at this time and his top student beat them one after the other and then all at once.

dispite the differences in stories, whatever the truth…he had, and ha sa formidable reputation…and for good reason. I would love to see him in his prime fighting in todays competitions. He fought people specialising in all types of styles (striking, throwing and locking / ground work, and stength)…and beat them all.

aside from him…as I mentioned in an earlier post…my shifu’s father more than once beat over 2 japanese soldier at the same time…and they were armed with guns.

Back to the point about single man forms as opposed to two man…I much prefer doing two man, and doing applicaiton and techniques…but my limited martial arts (only 18 years) has to bow down to centries of wisdom and fighters who have proved single man training works. It should be noted though that it worked for THEM…and that doesnt mean it will work for everyone else. It’s also worth noting that most of them probably had something that is very rare in the west…a strong spritual side…like the old cliche of body mind and spirit being one and so on.

I’ll be starting another thread (in about 3 mins!) about peoples skill levels…please contribute there if you have time. Thanks people.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by stimulant
[B]Sorry for the late reply boys and girls…but I can reply from home for some technical unknown reason!

as regard to Hou Yuan Jia

I would love to see him fight today…

but dont know if he would be good, or if he would get beat…

Although the caliber of fighter today is amazing and they have good foundations in all aspects of fighting…

we should look at a few fcats about Hou Yuan Jia…

a) he was never (recorded) beaten

b) he accepted and beat all challenges, even in bad health

c) he not only beat fellow chinese kung-fu…but also

      1. European bare knuckle prize fighters (these guys were real tuff nuts...often boxing till one was knocked out), 
      2. Wrestlers, 
      3. A famous Russian strong man of the time (in fact he beat him and scared him so badly he never returned to china!)
      4. A team of japanese fighters (apparently samurai, but I'm not convinced about that because of the date, - late 1800's / very early 1900's).

he beat the each of the japanese fighters 1 after the other (ment ot have been 5 or 6…differes depending on the source). The problem with the japanese fights story is the differences in stories…one saud after he beat them they attacked him at once and he beat tham all (during his hey day he is rumoured to have beat more than one person at a tiem on several occasions), the other story sayd he was to ill to fight them at this time and his top student beat them one after the other and then all at once.

dispite the differences in stories, whatever the truth…he had, and ha sa formidable reputation…and for good reason. I would love to see him in his prime fighting in todays competitions. He fought people specialising in all types of styles (striking, throwing and locking / ground work, and stength)…and beat them all.

[/B]

you said no losses are recorded. Are his wins recorded? where?