Forms/Applications vs. Sparring/Fighting

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

I’ve noticed when the topic of forms and fighting comes up, the argument against doing only forms is based on the fact that things are different against resisting opponents with elements like adrenaline/fear creeping into them.

However, I am of the opinion that, these elements aside, one still uses the same techniques/principles as in the forms, and the only difference between specific techniques from the forms and their use in fighting seems to be the emotional element, and forms should technically be performed under the correct emotional intent, as that should be considered part of the form.

So the questions are:

-Theoretically, could a person become a good fighter studying only the form, including angles of attack, footwork, emotional “centeredness”/“intensity”, power generation, counters, etc.?

-If not, what prevents adequate simulation of the emotional content of a fight situation to do so?

I’m not looking for any set answer, just different member’s views. Here’s mine:

-Theoretically yes. Realistically, much, much more difficult.

-Difficult to test the emotions while doing forms, and how do you set up the proper mind frame? Carry poisonous snakes dangerously close to the forms practitioner, so that they must deal with the adrenaline and fear? Randomly poke a spear close to the practitioner without warning, just to try to freak them?(I like this concept. I suspect I’m gonna be one strange sifu)

Keep in mind, by saying “forms”, I’m not just saying practicing the sets in their set order, but the pieces and different combinations of the pieces as the practitioner sees fit.

2

There are many more difference besides emotional content. Unless you are an absolute prodigy, you won’t be able to understand what you’re supposed to be doing in solo practice without having spent some time going hands-on.

3

Let’s you and I take up the Olympic sport of ski jumping. You practice all your techniques in “forms” in your living room without actually jumping. I, meanwhile, will practice these exact same techniques jumping with skis from a ski jump. Let’s see who is better after 6 months of training.

4

-Theoretically, could a person become a good fighter studying only the form, including angles of attack, footwork, emotional “centeredness”/“intensity”, power generation, counters, etc.?

-If not, what prevents adequate simulation of the emotional content of a fight situation to do so?

+Theoretically, no. A person cannot become a good fighter by studying only the form. A person can only become a good fighter by fighting. The closest “simulation” of this is sparring.

+The fact that there is not another human attempting to cause harm to you would be the main factor preventing the simulation of the emotional content of a fight.

I think your snake idea is cool, but frankly: bunk. I dont think it would really scare anyone unless for some odd reason they have some inherent fear of snakes. Randomly thrusting a spear at a person is closer, but still far from fighting. I think a better idea would be to build some sort of machine that has multiple moving parts that can all hit and injure the person at different levels, angles, etc. Like a gauntlet or something - you see them in movies all the time.

5

Theoretically, NO. A person who does forms will become very good at forms. They will NOT become proficient at techniques other than “what they look like.”

There are people who throw picture perfect crosses and knees that have next to no power and balance when hitting something solid.

Sparring is the ONLY way…

6

drills that lead slowly into sparring is the only way, hey wait, those are forms and two person forms. They teach all the above mentioned things. Then of course, there is sparring.

7

Yenhoi,
The only person not afraid of a deadly poisonous snake near their face is a snake handler. However, I agree, the idea is bunk, but would deal with the emotional factor, up until all your students quit and called the men in white coats on you.:eek:

The gantlet idea is nice. The wooden army form.

Braden,
If you practice the applications, plus know the angles of attack, etc., then you will know what you are supposed to be doing, which still falls under forms practice. In otherwords, two man practice should do that. Sparring doesn’t automatically tell you what the forms are for: usually you figure that out for yourself, or you are taught it, and then you implement it into your fighting/sparring.

Knifefighter,
You’re on. I’m practicing right now. Let me know how you’re first jump goes.:smiley:

Believe me, I don’t learn from form alone, I spar. I just wonder how impossible it really is to become a decent fighter without fighting. I think, after a much longer practice time that was really focussed on understanding the style, one would be better off against most opponents, though I’m not suggesting better than those who spar, but better than those who would attack them.

BTW, Knifefighter, when we do this jump thing, it’ll have to be in Frederick, Friday night, there’s this little park…

8

Merryprankster, is sparring the only way to develop balance and power?

9

Forms= power mechanics, structure, alignment, footwork in an environment free of other stimuli

Sparring= learning to apply the above in a non-cooperative, combative setting

So why not do both?

10

The park in Frederick, MA, right? The one with the ski jump platform? I believe they have ski jump competitions there every Friday.

11

Theoretically no-way.

To fight and defend yourself you have to get in there and pressure-test your stuff against the living, beyond that it also helps greatly if you are into conditioning, not only the needed impact conditioning used to generate power, heavy bag, posts, dummies, sheilds, pads, but also the important aspect of sheer physical conditioning, as well as that of mental awareness and harnessing a aggressive mindset, itself a aspect which will come out of intense sparring and situational drills.

How can a person expect to be able to defeat a “trained” attacker if you can not even do 50 jumping jacks?

IMHO forms are considered a excerisce tool that fits into a hybrid format of both physical and mental conditioning, not pressure-testing, but one related to working out the muscles and mind together, that and it is also IMHO a guidebook to the tech’s found within the flavor of the eastern systems.

Just my thoughts, I am going to be getting back into some form work if I past my second test for the association I am under review for, but this is a minute part of what they do, most of it being severe pressure-testing and serious physical conditioning.

12

…

i agree, without experience your forms are not going to make u GOOD, but they will aid.

if you practice forms and techniques without ever sparring, you still might be able to pull some of the techniques off, but still your not going to be GOOD.

one of my sidi’s did nothing but forms for maybe 1 year or so, and he actually managed to block a guys hockey stick with his own using one of the techniques from the forms, and then proceeded to block the guys punch, put him in a joint lock, and take him down.
i was actually pretty impressed hahaha but i don’t ENCOURAGE ppl to try and fight without atleast having sparring experience, it’s not very smart.

but thats also how a some of ppl used to do it in HK too, back in the 60s and 70s, practice forms for maybe 5 or 6 yrs, and then go challenge ppl: hope your forms practice paid off…

13

Black Jack,
Didn’t think of including the fitness thing. Let’s assume equal fitness in both the forms and sparring practitioners. Therefore, the fighter and forms guy both can do the same number of jumping jacks.

Also, internal forms have a very important mental content that should match the mental state of the person when fighting. All the good fighters I know look more intense when doing form.

BTW, good luck on your test, I’m sure you’ll do great.

Crushing Fist,
That’s a great story. I wouldn’t recommend it either. To be honest, I’m more a mix guy, I like both forms and sparring, and I like what my sparring does to my forms.
Is that true about the HK guys?

14

Thanks KC:)

Its not a physical test but more like a symbolic/ritualistic second interview that has been done this way for a number of decades in the American Bando community.

If I pass this second test, I passed my first test which is a biography/resume and criminal background check, I go to my third, which will make me a probation member in the assocaition, if I fail I hit the road and thats it.

Thanks for the confidence boost.

15

Black Jack,
Then let’s hope they don’t find out about the busload of flight attendants and that sordid “mooning” incident.:eek:

Seriously, I’m sure you’ll do fine. Let us know how it goes, and don’t let them know you come here, or someone’s liable to claim your actually another Ralek alias or something.

16

"Braden,
If you practice the applications, plus know the angles of attack, etc., then you will know what you are supposed to be doing, which still falls under forms practice. In otherwords, two man practice should do that. Sparring doesn’t automatically tell you what the forms are for: usually you figure that out for yourself, or you are taught it, and then you implement it into your fighting/sparring. "

KC,

If you practice the applications in mid-air, you’re still missing alot other than emotional content. Again, unless you’re an absolute prodigy, there’s just no way you’ll understand how to do it right.

17

Braden,
Applications practice should take care of the “hitting thin air” thing. Then its just the mental remaining.

I hope you guys aren’t getting too annoyed with my nit-picking. I’m trying to narrow the list of things that only sparring and fighting can provide for two reasons:

-As I’m always thinking about how I will someday teach, I wanted to approach the forms/sparring thing from as informed an angle as possible, and…

-As I am presently unable to spar due to health reasons, I am trying to define exactly what in sparring I cannot replace, and what I can continue to train in other ways, all the while killing some time on a completely slow work day.

18

Well, is our theoretical guy only training the form, or is he doing two-man hands-on work too? You specifically said only doing the form, so that’s what I replied to. If he’s doing two-man hands-on work, then he’s doing more than just the form. All sparring is, is a certain kind of hands-on two-man work.

19

I mean, the next step is I would say, well you’ve got to do those single movement applications against someone who’s really resisting. And you’d go - oh yeah, of course! And then I’d say, we’ll you still won’t learn about flow. And you’d say - well, you’d do them in a flow drill!

So now we have the situation where our theoretical person is immersed in a seamless flow drill, trying to pull of techniques, against an honestly resisting opponent, which presumably means he’s going to get hit… uh… sounds like the picture your painting is someone sparring.

20

I just ski jumped 30 meters, top that!

No it wouldnt work well, forms are just a small part of the equation that, imho, are way over emphasized.

I think you could build a good fighter w/o making him/her learn any forms, but couldnt build a good fighter with just forms. If the goal is fighting or even real defense, long, time consuming forms should not be the main emphasis in training. Maybe in certain situations they might defend themselves better than w/ no MA training, but against a trained fighter they would get creamed.

By forms, I mean in the stereotypical sense of stringed together reutines, not ‘correct form’ which is important and can be learned by breakdown, repetition and analysis like in a boxing gym.
All forms w/ no real fighting is like a glass albatross, a delicate structure that may appear beautiful and substancial, but when tested under stress, will shatter and come crashing down.