[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1066828]
How do you maintain the body’s every joints/muscles/tendons loosened up when receiving incoming force, there has to be some type of muscle tonus since human being use muscle and tendons like a pully to move our sketelital frame, but not necessarily tension to recieve force
How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?[/QUOTE]
Forward Spring Energy…
[QUOTE=theo;1066804]As was mentioned, there is the body of the art, and then the application. Both need the other to be complete. WIthout the body, one cannot do the application, to do the application, one needs the body.
As stated by many lineages, the WCK path is internal. Leung Jan, Yip Man, and YKS all have made references to this. As such, to develop in this path, one needs the right conditioning and body transformation to support the momentum handling and power generation.[/QUOTE]
Okay I do agree with your points here, but I’m simply asking why you, and Hendrik, feel that Emei snake can teach you this but the forms and practises Wing Chun families have can not? This is only my impression from Hendriks posts. Without the Emei heigung you can’t have the properly developed internal body?!
I have always been a strong advocate of the Snake & Crane and their connection to Wing Chun, as this is how I was trained. And fwiw I practise very similar heigung exercises Hendriks student does in his SLT discussion series on Youtube. What I know for sure is that these teachings I received did not originate from YKS, as I was under the impression that his heigung came from ‘outside’ the Wing Chun family?
Wing Chun heigung (Qigong) is what it is and it’s very evident in our SLT and all other practises fme. So, why do we need Emei methods?
Theo can answer his way.
The following is my answer to you.
but I’m simply asking why you, and Hendrik, feel that Emei snake can teach you this but the forms and practises Wing Chun families have can not?
That is not what I mean.
What I mean is the art of WCK is using Emei snake technology as a based or “operating system” to create SLT, CK, BJ…etc.
and without identifying the snake technology to the details in WCK, that part of the art will be missing and not practice accordingly.
Without the Emei heigung you can’t have the properly developed internal body?!
Emei 12 zhuang is not a heigung but an internal cultivation technology in today’s word.
Since WCK is using Emei platform, without follow the way of the technology, one will not get the optimum result.
Wing Chun heigung (Qigong) is what it is and it’s very evident in our SLT and all other practises fme. So, why do we need Emei methods?
Can one’s practice lead one to enter into silence, activate Qi flow, penetrate force vectors to finger tips, activate every joints of the body, generating the famous WCK short jing… if one can then one doesnt need to revisit the Emei technology ; if not one needs to re install the Emei “operating system” into one’s set practice.
It is similar with a computer, if the operating system is not operating, one needs to re installed it. otherwise, the computer will not do what it means to do.
[QUOTE=YungChun;1066849]Forward Spring Energy…[/QUOTE]
Yes, one way to do it.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066873]What I mean is the art of WCK is using Emei snake technology as a based or “operating system” to create SLT, CK, BJ…etc.
and without identifying the snake technology to the details in WCK, that part of the art will be missing and not practice accordingly.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the reply Hendrik.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066873]Emei 12 zhuang is not a heigung but an internal cultivation technology in today’s word.
Since WCK is using Emei platform, without follow the way of the technology, one will not get the optimum result.[/QUOTE]
Sorry for my ‘layman’ terms but heigung is heigung! Internal cultivation technology just seems a more modern phrase to describe heigung to me. The Emei may help you get to the destination, but what I’m saying is that nobody would have this 12 palm technology unless they learn it from you? And some may have reached the same destination from their Wing Chun training, so what makes the Emei worth the time and attention? Especially when it’s only half the Snake/Crane method?
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066873]Can one’s practice lead one to enter into silence, activate Qi flow, penetrate force vectors to finger tips, activate every joints of the body, generating the famous WCK short jing… if one can then one doesnt need to revisit the Emei technology ; if not one needs to re install the Emei “operating system” into one’s set practice.
It is similar with a computer, if the operating system is not operating, one needs to re installed it. otherwise, the computer will not do what it means to do.[/QUOTE]
I totally understand the hard-drive concept as this is also how I was taught. We used to joke about things like that all the time! It’s just that I was installed with the concept of ‘seed’ cultivation, which is the Wing Chun heigung signature fme and evidenced in everyones practise that I have ever seen (although maybe not in the same, or creative like cycles)
In answer to your questions, yes, I have felt, trained and experimented with everything you mention in small and large ways! And I was able to do this through my basic understanding of the seed and Lee Shings heigung methods trained alongside the forms, interactive, equipment, weaponry and literature based ideas I have mentioned before.
Snake methods, for me, were also heavily linked to the pole; crane to the knives, and the whole interactive process requires knowledge of these two animals natural behaviours too.
Something I am interested in immensely so thanks again for your replies…
Sorry for my ‘layman’ terms but heigung is heigung! Internal cultivation technology just seems a more modern phrase to describe heigung to me.
if one look deep into it, Heigung is a rather modern term and narrow after 1900.
the term Neigung is the ancient term, Neigung is internal cultivation technology.
Heigung is just a part of Neigung. Neigung Ultimately it is not Heigung but Shen gung.
Emei technology is one of those which cover physical, breathing, energy, to Shen and then to enlightement. It is a process which is very well define.
Also, what is Heigung? heigung today means different things to different people, from demonstration tricks to very indepth.
Thus, IMHO, it is not up to one to decide but one has to look at the content and describe it as it is. and the scope of 12 zhuang is much much boarder and details general public thinking.
The Emei 12 zhuang technology I am bringing up is not the daily general Heigung.
The Emei may help you get to the destination, but what I’m saying is that nobody would have this 12 palm technology unless they learn it from you?
it is 12 Zhuang meaning 12 ways of internal cultivation. it is not 12 palm.
Nope, any one can learn the 12 Zhuang technology from the 12 Zhuang gate keeper and any one could activate their WCK sets.
The reason I am posting for decades is not about learning it from me but I tell the world ---- if you have the technology in your lineage, great! preserve that. If you want to make sure you are in the proper path. Check out the 12 zhuang as reference.
I am just a messenger to reveal this things exist and needs to be look into for those who is serious about SLT.
And some may have reached the same destination from their Wing Chun training, so what makes the Emei worth the time and attention? Especially when it’s only half the Snake/Crane method?
First one needs to know what is the snake technology, and then,
the question lay on one has to face oneself honestly, could one’s cultivation in one’s WCK set attain the quality or Kung fu as I post above? and how far or close it is?
From there one makes one own decision. as one likes it.
For me, art is not a business deal, if one is serious in an art and want to be good in an art it takes whatever it takes to research to learn to practice. But then everyone is different so it is up to everyone’s own decision.
Hi theo!
Can you explain how hendrik adjusted his structure to rearrange and dissolve your incoming force so that it would not find a reaction path?
and where do you rearrange the incoming force vectors to? is it away from your centerline/center of gravity?
How do you maintain the body’s every joints/muscles/tendons loosened up when receiving incoming force, there has to be some type of muscle tonus since human being use muscle and tendons like a pully to move our sketelital frame, but not necessarily tension to recieve force
How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1066998]Hi theo!
Can you explain how hendrik adjusted his structure to rearrange and dissolve your incoming force so that it would not find a reaction path?
and where do you rearrange the incoming force vectors to? is it away from your centerline/center of gravity?
How do you maintain the body’s every joints/muscles/tendons loosened up when receiving incoming force, there has to be some type of muscle tonus since human being use muscle and tendons like a pully to move our sketelital frame, but not necessarily tension to recieve force
How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?[/QUOTE]
hello KFF,
That’s about as much detail that would be useful really. Putting it into words where they are dissolved to, away from this or that wouldn’t be very helpful because it would end up causing more speculation as to how much here or there…how it’s done can’t really be seen after all, the body is adjusting as a whole.
How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine? Refer to the conditions for levitation above…along with the right “operating system” this will bring the body into awareness and activate the joints, meridians, etc…so it’s a body and mind conditioning process one has to go through to cultivate the engine. Without it, then one might only be doing what they think is natural or effortless. And knowing and thinking are entirely different…
[I]Originally Posted by kung fu fighter
How do you maintain the body’s every joints/muscles/tendons loosened up when receiving incoming force, there has to be some type of muscle tonus since human being use muscle and tendons like a pully to move our sketelital frame, but not necessarily tension to recieve force
How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?[/I]
Fongsung Let go and relax
To explain something simple, which is hard to see and not always easy to obtain, is the difficultly.
Relaxed can be taken as being in a posture without actively tensing yourself to being totally limp. For me it means you have to be able to keep a posture whilst relaxing all the muscle / muscles not being used. I try to explain what I mean below. I am not an expert so be kind. :o
When standing your body takes care of the muscles, tendons & joints automatically you feel relaxed can move your arms, head waist etc but your body is using it’s muscles but working on auto. You would not be tensing your legs or pushing up to keep from falling down intentionally, right?
Now what if some one was to stand behind you and to place there hands on your shoulders and pull directly down, would you freeze tense and lock up, tense and push up with your legs? Or relax and let the body act automatically to resist. Of course there is a loading and muscle is being used but not intentionally tensing which would lock you up. You can still turn have relaxed arms and waist etc. and even move your legs. If this person was suddenly to let go you wouldn’t jump 2 feet in the air because you were tensing and pushing up with your legs would you? The body would just automatically stop resisting and be more relaxed. So for me it’s about being in different degrees of relaxation keeping the mind clear, alert and focused.
Relax, let go, no mind, dont worry be happy..
[QUOTE=FongSung;1067042]
Fongsung Let go and relax
To explain something simple, which is hard to see and not always easy to obtain, is the difficultly.
Relaxed can be taken as being in a posture without actively tensing yourself to being totally limp. For me it means you have to be able to keep a posture whilst relaxing all the muscle / muscles not being used. I try to explain what I mean below. I am not an expert so be kind. :o
When standing your body takes care of the muscles, tendons & joints automatically you feel relaxed can move your arms, head waist etc but your body is using it’s muscles but working on auto. You would not be tensing your legs or pushing up to keep from falling down intentionally, right?
Now what if some one was to stand behind you and to place there hands on your shoulders and pull directly down, would you freeze tense and lock up, tense and push up with your legs? Or relax and let the body act automatically to resist. Of course there is a loading and muscle is being used but not intentionally tensing which would lock you up. You can still turn have relaxed arms and waist etc. and even move your legs. If this person was suddenly to let go you wouldn’t jump 2 feet in the air because you were tensing and pushing up with your legs would you? The body would just automatically stop resisting and be more relaxed. So for me it’s about being in different degrees of relaxation keeping the mind clear, alert and focused.
Relax, let go, no mind, dont worry be happy..[/QUOTE]
well said, sir - a more than reasonable description of an experiential state of being that can be difficult to articulate
I know that “fang sung” has a specific translation, but I like to think of it as a state of “resiliency” or “reciprocity” in regards to how the system manages itself in relation to an external force; actually, we have the opportunity to practice it all the time: whenever you breathe, the respiratory diaphragm descends - this in turn creates a ground reaction force that travels up through the body; how we “respond” (versus “react”) to that GRF can be informed by this (and of course, this can be done either when lying, sitting, standing or walking / running); and despite my noodling him, I don’t disagree with Hendrick’s “six-direction”, at least as he articulates them, as this does occur in a multi-axial, multi-planar context (essentially according to tensegrity principles);
as far as “be happy” - try standing practice while frowning and while smiling (slightly) - see what it does to your spine, lol…
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066898]if one look deep into it, Heigung is a rather modern term and narrow after 1900.
the term Neigung is the ancient term, Neigung is internal cultivation technology.
Heigung is just a part of Neigung. Neigung Ultimately it is not Heigung but Shen gung.[/QUOTE]
Okay. Heres where I must learn mandarin terms. My teacher is Cantonese, so bear with me…
Neigung = Loigung
Shengung = ?
Chigung = Heigung
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066898]Also, what is Heigung? heigung today means different things to different people, from demonstration tricks to very indepth.[/QUOTE]
You answered this already yourself.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066898]Heigung is just a part of Neigung.[/QUOTE]
If Heigung is a ‘modern term’ then so be it. From my understanding, and your concentration on Loigung (as Heigung is ‘just a part’ of it) I think I/we refer to the breathing and postural exercises as Heigung because this type of training must be both hard and soft, inside and outside.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066898]The Emei 12 zhuang technology I am bringing up is not the daily general Heigung.[/QUOTE]
As far as I know, there is no ‘general’ heigung. Every family has it’s method, as we do in the Wing Chun family. Just seems that some tend to favour certain ways. My Uncle, Austin Goh, as an example favours 5 Element Heigung training, whereas my Sifu was softer in his approach using more feminine methods. And in all honesty, there are also those who don’t believe in it all too!
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066898]I am just a messenger to reveal this things exist and needs to be look into for those who is serious about SLT.
First one needs to know what is the snake technology, and then, the question lay on one has to face oneself honestly, could one’s cultivation in one’s WCK set attain the quality or Kung fu as I post above? and how far or close it is?
From there one makes one own decision. as one likes it.[/QUOTE]
This is where I find it hard to understand you as your tone seems condescending to those that have not experienced this ‘snake technology’ you talk of. Almost as if you’re saying that all those guys that have been into Wing Chun for the past 30-50 years are not serious about their SLT!
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066898]For me, art is not a business deal, if one is serious in an art and want to be good in an art it takes whatever it takes to research to learn to practice.[/QUOTE]
Okay. If this is the case then you would be more open to meeting with families that you have no experience of, no? To see and feel other peoples experiences or versions of the snake/crane technologies? To actual go out and meet people rater than expect them to visit you?
I too am always criticized by my brothers for my hermit status! I have two kids, a wife and a pretty demanding job as my excuse, so what’s yours?
Relax is a great basic key. everyone must learn relax.
However, it will not get to the transformation needed.
The chinese Internal cultivation is based on Relax but go much deeper the just Relax. Without the six directional force practice, one’s body will not be able to transform to having awareness at every location. Without the Emei technology the characteristics of the body will not be the same.
There are dull relax and aware relax. There are relax which is just relax and there are relax which could turn the whole body as an elastic bouncing ball.
physical relax is the based of mental silence and Qi flow. However, physical relax doesnt guarentee mental silence, qi flow, and generation or handling of different Jing or potential or momentum.
In my opinion, from my observation, most people stop at relax without entering into the gate of the internal cultivation.
Without the six directional force and snake technology or equivalent, live which is multidimentional flow and dynamic balance are not present in a practicing a set. that is certain. Thus, relax cant get to what KFF is asking but needs much more technology.
Spencer,
At different cultivation one sees different things. Thank you for sharing your view.
What I am describing is something intrinsicly embeded in the WCK SLT set. it is not a different add on heigong or doing something different or harden the body or for demonstration or to make it " I have it too". As for different lineages, those with the level of art could analyze and see through the art, thus, it is obvious and cannot be pretended.
There is no ambiguity but clarity once one has the six directional force and emei snake key to see what is going on and after that the way how they practice their set will be heaven and earth different eventhough the others will still think they are doing same old thing. It is about a Xing Fa or Mind method one makes the set alive with the mind method. it is a mind seal which one spend life to find out for those who is serious.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1067089]Spencer,
At different cultivation one sees different things. Thank you for sharing your view.
What I am describing is something intrinsicly embeded in the WCK SLT set.[/QUOTE]
In the Yik Kam SLT set or everybodies? Please share where this is explored within YK SLT. I was under the impression that the 12 Zhuangs are a separate entity entirely?
FWIW My SLT has 6 sets/sections, each designed to implement various ideas and more specifically various breathing technologies (in your words!) and this IS where my understanding of Heigung was first concentrated. It was only after I grasped that that my Sifu took us further into the ‘family heigung’ stuffs. Even then, it was like a re-confirmation of what had already been felt. It didn’t sit outside or separate from anything, in fact it complimented all I knew at the time.
It was like my Sifu said ‘here’s the door but go through it alone man!’
This precise Heigung practise helped me to further explore my Wing Chun, but it was the SLT itself that unlocked the door. As it should be fme.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1067095]In the Yik Kam SLT set or everybodies? Please share where this is explored within YK SLT. I was under the impression that the 12 Zhuangs are a separate entity entirely?
FWIW My SLT has 6 sets/sections, each designed to implement various ideas and more specifically various breathing technologies (in your words!) and this IS where my understanding of Heigung was first concentrated. It was only after I grasped that that my Sifu took us further into the ‘family heigung’ stuffs. Even then, it was like a re-confirmation of what had already been felt. It didn’t sit outdide being separate from anything, in fact it complimented all I knew at the time.
It was like my Sifu said ‘here’s the door but go through it alone man!’
This precise Heigung practise helped me to further explore my Wing Chun, but it was the SLT itself that unlocked the door. As it should be fme.[/QUOTE]
The technology intrinsicly embeded in every move and every instant of the SLT practice of the set until one’s every daily move is transform. It is transparent but there, there is not any kind of Family heigung stuffs. It is WCK the core and guts of WCK, only if one recognized it or not.
However , if one doesnt know the mind method the set is no different then any usual set. or default into physical exercise or drill or muscle programing…etc.
As ‘here’s the door but go through it alone man!’ is not totally accurate. Those who go throught it is not alone because lots of people has go through that door and on the journey. also, is there really a door? does what one knows really transform one’s world? or just some old chinese saying as in any movies where there is no substance or it is empty in reality.
BTW. breathing technology is not my word and I have never gone there. what you think is not what I am presenting. To be honest, those stuffs you mention is like a black and white flat screen movie what I present is like a 3 D hologram movie. one needs to see that 3 D hologram movie to recognize the world is a 3 D hologram and more, one knows that black and white practice is not adequate to represent the real world. Relax as mention above even sound great is still a black and white flat screen.
As I told Theo, six directional force… is a ticket to the movie. Ask Theo when he walks in that 3 D hologram cinema will his set be the same again or he has cross the line of no return. if he has cross the line of no return then he has gone through the door and started the journey.
When I mean not general Heigong, I mean it is something which will lead to the nature vibration or nature or God. It is about let go let God instead of something to manupulated body via mind. I mean a transformation/transcent of body and mind where one no longer as before.
That is the beauty of SLT , that is spring time.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066898]the term Neigung is the ancient term, Neigung is internal cultivation technology.
Heigung is just a part of Neigung. Neigung Ultimately it is not Heigung but Shen gung.
Emei technology is one of those which cover physical, breathing, energy, to Shen and then to enlightement. It is a process which is very well define.
[/QUOTE]
So you have a set or sets from Emei that are Neigung development focused. And they help develop the adaptable power that you see coming to WCK from the snake side.
Actually, those are probably pretty cool.
I still practice a series of TCMA Neigung development sets that are from lohan. As well as some specific energy development exercises from my family’s WCK.
So I can appreciate it.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1067100]So you have a set or sets from Emei that are Neigung development focused. And they help develop the adaptable power that you see coming to WCK from the snake side.
Actually, those are probably pretty cool.
I still practice a series of TCMA Neigung development sets that are from lohan. As well as some specific energy development exercises from my family’s WCK.
So I can appreciate it.[/QUOTE]
Nope, no need extra set or add on.
WCK SLT set if not modified too far away from the red boat era, is an Emei 12 zhuang snake intrinsic embeded set. Developing Neigung in a transparent way if one knows how to turn on the engine.
Anyone who knows the technology knows the emei snake signature such as in the Biu Jee set 3.30.
=Hendrik;1067065]Relax is a great basic key. everyone must learn relax.
However, it will not get to the transformation needed.
The chinese Internal cultivation is based on Relax but go much deeper the just Relax. Without the six directional force practice, one’s body will not be able to transform to having awareness at every location.
Yes agreed. My example was basic and free of terminology.
Again I try to put it simple my understanding.
Once you can apply my example to the six directions individually, your on the way?
When you can apply it to more than one direction at once, you are getting there?
When you can combine a awareness of all six directions at once ie floating the body your getting close, right?
Then you need practise (lots of) to handle force which can be from anywhere because a combination of the six vectors can create any other vector.
Of course you have to be alert, in a state of readiness able to adjust not just with the mind idle and day dreaming nor should you be concentrating on trying to do this (trying to hard). It should be natural, second nature.
[QUOTE=FongSung;1067117]
Once you can apply my example to the six directions you are on the way.
When you can apply it to more than one direction you are getting there?
When you can combine a awareness of all six directions at once ie floating the body your getting close, right?
Then you need practise (lots of) to handle force which can be from anywhere because a combination of the six vectors can create any other vector.
Of course you have to be alert, in a state of readiness able to adjust not just with the mind idle and day dreaming nor should you be concentrating on trying to do this (trying to hard). It should be natural, second nature.[/QUOTE]
Are you describing what you are doing or you are asking questions?
Theo,
the above sound like what I am presenting but is it what I am presenting? Care to share your view?
today is my sentimental day
This is for those who knows the six directional force and the snake to open up the channels
like a condor one levitate within the strong wind.
like a loaded arrow waiting to discharge
like a horse it firmly rush out
like a human one has a boundless heart.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUFl_MeTz1Q&feature=related
This is my view for those who knows chinese
,
,
[QUOTE=FongSung;1067042][I] When standing your body takes care of the muscles, tendons & joints automatically you feel relaxed can move your arms, head waist etc but your body is using it’s muscles but working on auto. You would not be tensing your legs or pushing up to keep from falling down intentionally, right?
Now what if some one was to stand behind you and to place there hands on your shoulders and pull directly down, would you freeze tense and lock up, tense and push up with your legs? Or relax and let the body act automatically to resist. Of course there is a loading and muscle is being used but not intentionally tensing which would lock you up. You can still turn have relaxed arms and waist etc. and even move your legs. If this person was suddenly to let go you wouldn’t jump 2 feet in the air because you were tensing and pushing up with your legs would you? The body would just automatically stop resisting and be more relaxed. So for me it’s about being in different degrees of relaxation keeping the mind clear, alert and focused.
Relax, let go, no mind, dont worry be happy..[/QUOTE]
Hi,
I don't think this is what Hendrik is referring to as 6 directional force vector or the snake engine. What you discribed above seems to be more in line with Peng Jin and correct ground reaction force/rooting.
[QUOTE=theo;1067019]hello KFF,
That’s about as much detail that would be useful really. Putting it into words where they are dissolved to, away from this or that wouldn’t be very helpful because it would end up causing more speculation as to how much here or there…how it’s done can’t really be seen after all, the body is adjusting as a whole.[/QUOTE]
What are you adjusting inside your body as a whole to deal with incoming external force?
Hendrik,
Is this a good example of the excercises needed to loosen up the body in order to develop the snake engine and see hua?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI_1qSBNxBc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJA29UtmSw0&feature=related