my visit with hendrik

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1066543]The law of specificity is NOT just for strength training but is applicable to all methods of “body work”, perhaps even more so Martial arts.
Even MORE so highly specialized MA.[/QUOTE]

The TCMA has the power/Momentum generation/handling fuse with the uniqueness of application strategy, implement via the conditioning of body - mind -breathing.

Using the six directional forces, physical elements such as joints and weight, mental state entering, and the 12 energy/qi medirians models holisitcally cover both the generation, application, and body-mind conditioning.

those are just the basic of internal TCMA.

The issue is not TCMA, the issue is incomplete TCMA; and then taking what is incomplete as TCMA and make all kind of conclusion.

The issue is not the set, the issue is not practicing the set according to the requirements needed.

The issue is some having not yet understant the TCMA, but using one’s partial view to judge what TCMA is ;which is actually equavalent to flying blind.

and then when one’s limitation was pointed out, keep argue without even knowing what the TCMA party describe for winning the arguement sake.

[QUOTE=horserider;1066487]I think Mr. Wayfaring you do not see Mr Hendrik point.

You may study wing chun but fight like a boxer . You may be a great fighter but you are not a wing chun fighter. Why spend time with wing chun if you do not use wing chun to fight?
[/QUOTE]
Quite the opposite. Mr. Hendrik does not see my point, and by choice. He refuses to respond to my point and instead labels it “troublemaking post”. This is what I call “preferred blindness”. You don’t want to address a major problem with your training so instead you ignore it when it comes up.

Don’t infer from my posts that I fight like a boxer. I just train with some. And in doing that it points out areas where “boomerang strikes”, “short distance accelerated jing”, and other such cool sounding terms are not as important as other WCK concepts. I use what I have learned in WCK to fight. Or more precisely, to practice fighting.

For you and Hendrik the question is similar. If you don’t fight or practice fighting, why spend time with wing chun? To show SLT as a beautiful dance? For meditation? That’s OK, but not real.

To be a wing chun person that fights with wing chun you must first learn how to use wing chun the way it was inteneded. Learn the proper structure and it’s uses learn the jing’s Learn how to take the basics in SLT and then apply them . However you can not ever do this if you do not first learn the snake and crane sides of wing chun.

How would you know? You are not a person that fights with wing chun, so how can you teach someone else to?

At least that is what I understand his point to be. leanr the wing chun then learn to use it. Use the joints ,shoulder width stance, calm mind etc etc. Then take these things and learn to apply them. The next step.

If one gets to the point where they are the lineage holder for a branch of WCK and yet they never take the next step, what then?

Where is this next step? In your mind? Certainly not in your practice.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066563]The issue is not TCMA, the issue is incomplete TCMA; and then taking what is incomplete as TCMA and make all kind of conclusion.
[/QUOTE]
No, IMO the issue is someone saying they have a complete TCMA but that it is not intended to be used as a MA, and never using it as a MA. Thus the end destination being only having the TC part because the MA part has atrophied like the muscles of a broken arm when you take a cast off.

The issue is not the set, the issue is not practicing the set according to the contents needed.

I agree with this statement. Practicing the set according to contents needed includes the originally intended context - MA.

The issue is some having not yet understant the TCMA using the one’s partial view to judge what TCMA is which is actually equavalent to flying blind. and when pointed out, keep argue without even knowing what the TCMA party describe for winning the arguement sake.

My point is it is impossible to understand TCMA while removing the MA part of it.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1066534]My issue with that is that you can’t really learn the structure, gings, etc. except through application – by actually doing whatever it is under realistic conditions. The forms and unrealistic practices (drills/exercises) are superficial. You can’t learn how to throw a ball except by and through actually throwing the ball. Mimicking the action, the ging, etc. won’t really teach you how to DO it.

Moreover, those unrealistic practices more often than not lead us in the wrong direction.
[/QUOTE]

This is pretty much where I was going with the discussion, maybe with a slight distinction. I do feel the forms have an intended meditative and holistic side to them as well - the drills / exercises lead towards application, and consistent training in an alive environment fighting context is what leads in the right direction.

On the other hand, if Hua Jing and Fa Jing “stuffs” are focused on developing in an environment that is removed from fighting, and low to mediocre level fighters use blunter or more basic tools to develop their fighting skills beyond your ability, then of what value are they?

Like Cris Angel Mindfreak? You can do great party tricks with magic?

I accept what and how everyone think or their mind set, for it is not my issue on what one attract via one’s thinking.

The following is I express my view because I exist ; not interested to convert anyone or agree by anyone but my view describe from my personal experience. Truth or not that is up to you.

is the above qouted statement on jing a truth?

1, look at the statement, it starts with “if” this big if means the person who make the statement doesnt know what he is talking about. Have never seen the things and have never know or experience what it is.

2, What is Hua Jing and Fa Jing. Those are as basic as " catching " and “throwing” a ball if it is analogy in playing base ball or basket ball. The basic one needs to know in order to play ball. in the TCMA, this is the basic of TCMA.

3, " Hua Jing and Fa Jing “stuffs” focused on developing in an environment that is removed from fighting," ?

Only those who has no idea with what is Hua and Fa in TCMA and the training of it will make this type of statement.

TCMA using six directional force vectors and different momentum types to cover the handling of the three dimensional space, the goal is to be able to handle any type of momentum within the 3 dimensional space. it is targeted toward UNCONDITIONAL development covered momentum within the three dimensional space, instead of development in an environment that is removed from fighting.

4, " low to mediocre level fighters use blunter or more basic tools to develop their fighting skills beyond your ability, then of what value are they?"

One makes this statement without knowing what it is and irrational thinking.

5, “Like Cris Angel Mindfreak? You can do great party tricks with magic?”

Start with If and concluded with magic. this type of thinking is no different then the Boxer Rebel’s superiority and blind thinking pattern which claiming they can stop the western fire arm with their body while never know what is going on.

There are lots in TCMA one needs to know and certainly there are lots of partial TCMA in the world which needed to be admited as GM WXZ the founder of Yee Chuan put it.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066568]1, look at the statement, it starts with “if” this big if means the person who make the statement doesnt know what he is talking about. Have never seen the things and have never know or experience what it is.
[/QUOTE]
The “if” was introduced by your position that fighting or training in fighting is not necessary. Thus it is you that doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

2, What is Hua Jing and Fa Jing. Those are as basic as " catching " and “throwing” a ball if it is analogy in playing base ball or basket ball. The basic one needs to know in order to play ball. in the TCMA, this is the basic of TCMA.

Power generation is basic in ANY MA.

3, " Hua Jing and Fa Jing “stuffs” focused on developing in an environment that is removed from fighting," ?

Only those who has no idea with what is Hua and Fa in TCMA and the training of it will make this type of statement.

From your statements that environment describes your training. No fighting. No sparring. It’s not necessary.

4, " low to mediocre level fighters use blunter or more basic tools to develop their fighting skills beyond your ability, then of what value are they?"

One makes this statement without knowing what it is and irrational thinking.

OK. So it’s “irrational thinking” to have the idea that a professional boxer would probably defeat your Hua and Fa TCMA level of development in TCMA with 6 directional forces? The fact that you can’t put that together speaks for itself.

5, “Like Cris Angel Mindfreak? You can do great party tricks with magic?”

Start with If and concluded with party tricks. this type of thinking is no different then the Boxer Rebel’s superiority and blind thinking pattern which claiming they can stop the western fire arm with their body while never know what is going on.

No, actually trying to talk about training Hua, Fa and six directional force vectors without using it consistently in training fighting is much more like the blind thinking pattern of thinking you can stop a firearm with your body. Just like it. You have an idea of power, but never test it consistently. When you arrive in a situation facing someone that does test consistently it is exactly like that.

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1066575]The “if” was introduced by your position that fighting or training in fighting is not necessary. Thus it is you that doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Power generation is basic in ANY MA.

From your statements that environment describes your training. No fighting. No sparring. It’s not necessary[/QUOTE]

To win an arguement with all cost and twisting everything. This is a great example.

and your response show you dont know how to read too.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1066472&postcount=63

Your posts shows you dont know the traditional Chinese WCK and clueless on the Power/momentum I am describing. that is a fact.

No, actually trying to talk about training Hua, Fa and six directional force vectors without using it consistently in training fighting;

is much more like the blind thinking pattern of thinking you can stop a firearm with your body. Just like it.

You have an idea of power, but never test it consistently. When you arrive in a situation facing someone that does test consistently it is exactly like that

The above shows rediculus mind set and speculation; without knowing what it is and keep trying to play expect.

What idea of power but never test it consistently?

Anyone who knows the six directional force vectors knows it is subjected and adapted and fine tune to each applications activity at every instant.

anyone who knows Hua, and Fa jing knows it is subjected and adapted and fine tune to each applications activity at every instant.

The bottom line is you have never seen it, dont know what is it, and thus, make yourself a favor dont trying to play God and carry the big stick called “fighting” trying to rule the world. you might be a great fighter in other art, but in traditional chinese WCK, you dont know.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066563]The TCMA has the power/Momentum generation/handling fuse with the uniqueness of application strategy, implement via the conditioning of body - mind -breathing.

Using the six directional forces, physical elements such as joints and weight, mental state entering, and the 12 energy/qi medirians models holisitcally cover both the generation, application, and body-mind conditioning.

those are just the basic of internal TCMA.

The issue is not TCMA, the issue is incomplete TCMA; and then taking what is incomplete as TCMA and make all kind of conclusion.

The issue is not the set, the issue is not practicing the set according to the requirements needed.

The issue is some having not yet understant the TCMA, but using one’s partial view to judge what TCMA is ;which is actually equavalent to flying blind.

and then when one’s limitation was pointed out, keep argue without even knowing what the TCMA party describe for winning the arguement sake.[/QUOTE]

You seem to have missed the point of my post.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1066589]You seem to have missed the point of my post.[/QUOTE]

I could be or I choose to not follow your points. and do you get my point?

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066592]I could be or I choose to not follow your points. and do you get my point?[/QUOTE]

Well, we all choose our own path, that’s for sure.
I hope that eventually your path will involve the FIGHTING system of WC.
:wink:

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1066601]Well, we all choose our own path, that’s for sure.
I hope that eventually your path will involve the FIGHTING system of WC.
;)[/QUOTE]

you like to play GOD dont you?

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066658]you like to play GOD dont you?[/QUOTE]

I AM that I AM.
:wink:

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1066660]I AM that I AM.
;)[/QUOTE]

god its like Dales back to haunt us!

Or Popeye.
I yam what yam.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1066587]To win an arguement with all cost and twisting everything. This is a great example.

and your response show you dont know how to read too.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1066472&postcount=63

Your posts shows you dont know the traditional Chinese WCK and clueless on the Power/momentum I am describing. that is a fact.

[/QUOTE]
So the link above you included is not my post. And you are starting to talk nonsense and not even address any of the issues in the discussion. You are just repeating yourself about how your opinion is I don’t know anything. And one of your tactics is to call someone names and then say things like “that is a fact”.

I have not trained in YOUR family WCK. I don’t know YOUR family WCK. I have trained in ANOTHER family WCK. My WCK family uses different terms for power generation. I do not know whether they are the same or different - I’ve never seen yours, and certainly never seen it in a fighting context. Mostly because you don’t use it in a fighting context.

But if you want to start name-calling, keeping repeating the “you don’t know anything” line is like a little child, whining when it doesn’t get it’s way. Hendrik is acting like a little child. That is a fact.

There - you like that type of discussion?

What idea of power but never test it consistently?

Anyone who knows the six directional force vectors knows it is subjected and adapted and fine tune to each applications activity at every instant.

anyone who knows Hua, and Fa jing knows it is subjected and adapted and fine tune to each applications activity at every instant.

Actually if you want to get into this, there is absolutely no way that using vectors in six directions can fine tune at every instant. 6 directions - north, south, east, west, up, down, cannot describe the fine tune adjustments on the bridge or at contact between two humans. Vectors change every instant and at different velocities. 6 doesn’t begin to cover the possibilities.

The idea of power testing consistently involves fighting. Which you don’t do or don’t think is necessary. Right? Hua and Fa jing or whatever your other magic words are don’t do ANYTHING. PEOPLE have to do something with the concepts or fundamentals of power generation. And they do it testing in a live fighting environment. Or not.

The bottom line is you have never seen it, dont know what is it, and thus, make yourself a favor dont trying to play God and carry the big stick called “fighting” trying to rule the world. you might be a great fighter in other art, but in traditional chinese WCK, you dont know.

Nobody is trying to use a big stick to rule the world. This discussion started because theo posted up a nice little flowery praise post of Hendrik where you got together, did SLT for each other, discussed power, and he “pushed on your arms”. He said you have impressive power. Then somebody else asked if you guys sparred at all. You said no, that wasn’t the purpose. So we started discussing “impressive power” in the context of fighting, and wondering if two WCK people get together, what exactly is the purpose. But you got all upset and emotional and started saying you were going to ignore posts and then started calling people names.

Now you and theo getting together isn’t horrible or anything, even if you were not sparring. But your extreme reaction to that discussion makes people wonder why you’re reacting that way. Do you train fighting consistently? Or are you just trying to piece together portions of your kuen kuit to reconstruct your family WCK art doing form movements and other stuff only? If so, then maybe you might want to consider training all this “impressive power” for fighting. Because there are far too many people running around this world thinking they are David Carradine’s Kwai Chang Cain from Kung Fu in a deluded fashion with all their talk of power and vectors and original lineage and everything. That’s just dumb.

Preserve your lineage by training like a fighter. Then maybe you won’t be the last one in your family line to train WCK and the lineage might last beyond you. Otherwise, maybe not much hope.

Great post Dave! Not sure Hendrik’s going to be able to see your point through his blinders and tears, but your right on point!

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1066344]Again I repeat my question:

Although looking through some posts here gives me a pretty good idea I still would like to hear from Theo or Hendrik…[/QUOTE]

As was mentioned, there is the body of the art, and then the application. Both need the other to be complete. WIthout the body, one cannot do the application, to do the application, one needs the body.

As stated by many lineages, the WCK path is internal. Leung Jan, Yip Man, and YKS all have made references to this. As such, to develop in this path, one needs the right conditioning and body transformation to support the momentum handling and power generation.

[QUOTE=theo;1066804]As was mentioned, there is the body of the art, and then the application. Both need the other to be complete. WIthout the body, one cannot do the application, to do the application, one needs the body.

As stated by many lineages, the WCK path is internal. Leung Jan, Yip Man, and YKS all have made references to this. As such, to develop in this path, one needs the right conditioning and body transformation to support the momentum handling and power generation.[/QUOTE]

What exactly is the wck body in your opinion?

By body, I was not referring specifically to the physical body but the Body (Tee) of the art, which is covering the structure, power generation, etc…which is separate but not mutually exclusive to the application (Yoong).

so what is the body? all of the stuff on snake slide, body-mind conditioning , jing, qi, shen, YJKYM…

Hi theo!

Can you explain how hendrik adjusted his structure to rearrange and dissolve your incoming force so that it would not find a reaction path?

and where do you rearrange the incoming force vectors to? is it away from your centerline/center of gravity?

How do you maintain the body’s every joints/muscles/tendons loosened up when receiving incoming force, there has to be some type of muscle tonus since human being use muscle and tendons like a pully to move our sketelital frame, but not necessarily tension to recieve force

How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?