levitate

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

many has pm me asking what do I mean by levitate and the different between levitate with grounding.

So, here I open a thread to reply to all at one.

Think about Levitate as a boat floating on the sea. the boat is floating or in neutral gear so it is free to go to any direction without have to undo anything. it could move up and down, forward and backward, and left and right as needed. the left/right, up/down, and forward/backward is the six directional of forces the boat is facing.

Think about Grounding as a boat which has drop the anchor. So if the boat is going to move, it has to remove the anchor. In this way, the boat is “nail” to a position, and that “nailing” or anchor is going to resist the left/right, up/down, and forward/backward. unless one removes the anchor the boat can get tip over if the force it is resisting is bigger then what its anchor be able to deal with.

Now, it doesnt mean Anchor or Grounding is no good, grounding is a temperaly or transient activity, one applied it when needed and right away return to neutral when it is done. instead of make that Grounding a default. That default become a problem as a boat which is anchor and expect to go to every direction and resist all type of force. It doesnt work that way the ship will fall a part.

Now, take a look at the YJKYM, that is a neutral stance for dynamic changes. if it is anchor then as the boat, it will fall a part if it is expected to sail.

For example, if one is doing a YJKYM on top of a Wrestling mat which is some what springy. Now, in order to ground and having a forward pressure and some WCner does. What happen is it is like a boat anchor in a rough sea, person needs to balance itself from the changes of the mat every instant just to keep the YJKYM stable and having that forward pressure. That means without doing anything, one already has an over head. This Grounding and forward action cause and over head or extra effort to keep.

Now, even worse while facing some one who is intending to take you down. his idea is to go down to ground, and he has no over head to keep. but you have to keep your balance on top of you need to face him. So, that grounding and forward action actually working against yourself.

Some then will argue, that grounding keep one strong…etc, well, in reality that is false security. that type of grounding is just a burden. as I mention above grounding is a transient action. IE, when one fajin with falling step one uses the fall drop at that small instant only and then back to neutral. and the fajin can be used for attack or defense as recieving the incoming force..ect.

So, if one train the YJKYM in other mode beside the levitate, it is like learn how to drive with the break on thinking that will give a better control.

All of these are common sense for those who play with Fajin or momentum handling. instead of blindly take others word on certain practice. even it doesnt make sense and cause problem in the long run. Fajin or momentum handling is a dynamic things that cant be solved via static structure effectively.

So, in the case of YJKYM on the top of the springy mat, if it is levitating, it doesnt have to keep that grounding but adapting to the condition meaning make use of/borrow the springy mat’s motion to generate momentum for the application such as to power the move or bounce …at that time etc, instead of an over head of generate a momentum to stablelized the YJKYM while facing an opponent.

IMHO, the whole SLT is practice under the condition of levitate that way it is like practicing how to driving in the real high way; instead of put the car on stop and break and twisting the driving wheel in the parking lot thinking that is practicing driving; which lots of WCners do today.

So, as a summary,

Static structure training is about how to hold on one’s body.

Dynamic structure training is about not to hold on one’s body in one static structure but making use of every changes adaptively to generate/handle the momentum.
and in order to flow, dynamic structure training is un avoid able.

Dynamic structure is based on levitate state which is the neutral or floating state. If the SLT is a training for the dynamic structure then the YJKYM it is using has to be Levitate instead of standing like other Nam Kuen or Hung Gar’s Iron wire type.

and to be in Levitate, six directional force vectors understanding and handling is un avoidable.

Think about that boat float on the sea, it has to face the six directional force vectors at any instant and yet, it doesnt have to use mind to control. it float with it naturally with ease and that is what silence means.

hope this will help you to know what i am talking.

2

Hendrik-
That is a pretty clear essay, on an important distinction.

joy chaudhuri

3

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1072724]many has pm me asking what do I mean by levitate and the different between levitate with grounding.

So, here I open a thread to reply to all at one.

Think about Levitate as a boat floating on the sea. the boat is floating or in neutral gear so it is free to go to any direction without have to undo anything. it could move up and down, forward and backward, and left and right as needed. the left/right, up/down, and forward/backward is the six directional of forces the boat is facing.

Think about Grounding as a boat which has drop the anchor. So if the boat is going to move, it has to remove the anchor. In this way, the boat is “nail” to a position, and that “nailing” or anchor is going to resist the left/right, up/down, and forward/backward. unless one removes the anchor the boat can get tip over if the force it is resisting is bigger then what its anchor be able to deal with.

Now, it doesnt mean Anchor or Grounding is no good, grounding is a temperaly or transient activity, one applied it when needed and right away return to neutral when it is done. instead of make that Grounding a default. That default become a problem as a boat which is anchor and expect to go to every direction and resist all type of force. It doesnt work that way the ship will fall a part.

Now, take a look at the YJKYM, that is a neutral stance for dynamic changes. if it is anchor then as the boat, it will fall a part if it is expected to sail.

For example, if one is doing a YJKYM on top of a Wrestling mat which is some what springy. Now, in order to ground and having a forward pressure and some WCner does. What happen is it is like a boat anchor in a rough sea, person needs to balance itself from the changes of the mat every instant just to keep the YJKYM stable and having that forward pressure. That means without doing anything, one already has an over head. This Grounding and forward action cause and over head or extra effort to keep.

Now, even worse while facing some one who is intending to take you down. his idea is to go down to ground, and he has no over head to keep. but you have to keep your balance on top of you need to face him. So, that grounding and forward action actually working against yourself.

Some then will argue, that grounding keep one strong…etc, well, in reality that is false security. that type of grounding is just a burden. as I mention above grounding is a transient action. IE, when one fajin with falling step one uses the fall drop at that small instant only and then back to neutral. and the fajin can be used for attack or defense as recieving the incoming force..ect.

So, if one train the YJKYM in other mode beside the levitate, it is like learn how to drive with the break on thinking that will give a better control.

All of these are common sense for those who play with Fajin or momentum handling. instead of blindly take others word on certain practice. even it doesnt make sense and cause problem in the long run. Fajin or momentum handling is a dynamic things that cant be solved via static structure effectively.

So, in the case of YJKYM on the top of the springy mat, if it is levitating, it doesnt have to keep that grounding but adapting to the condition meaning make use of/borrow the springy mat’s motion to generate momentum for the application such as to power the move or bounce …at that time etc, instead of an over head of generate a momentum to stablelized the YJKYM while facing an opponent.

IMHO, the whole SLT is practice under the condition of levitate that way it is like practicing how to driving in the real high way; instead of put the car on stop and break and twisting the driving wheel in the parking lot thinking that is practicing driving; which lots of WCners do today.

So, as a summary,

Static structure training is about how to hold on one’s body.

Dynamic structure training is about not to hold on one’s body in one static structure but making use of every changes adaptively to generate/handle the momentum.
and in order to flow, dynamic structure training is un avoid able.

Dynamic structure is based on levitate state which is the neutral or floating state. If the SLT is a training for the dynamic structure then the YJKYM it is using has to be Levitate instead of standing like other Nam Kuen or Hung Gar’s Iron wire type.

and to be in Levitate, six directional force vectors understanding and handling is un avoidable.

Think about that boat float on the sea, it has to face the six directional force vectors at any instant and yet, it doesnt have to use mind to control. it float with it naturally with ease and that is what silence means.

hope this will help you to know what i am talking.[/QUOTE]

Levitation?? really?? Someone clearly dosed your coffee this morning.

4

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1072728]Hendrik-
That is a pretty clear essay, on an important distinction.

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

Joy,

Hope that we all share our view and have a good discussion on the subject.

We cant just import Taiji or CLF or Hung gar, WCK is a different type of animal.

5

Hey Hendrik!

Thanks for the descriptions!

It sounds to me that what you are referring to as “levitate”, is what I refer to as “having a floating kwa.” Standing in YGKYM with a “floating kwa” means that you have not “locked in” the kwa by rolling the hips forward and flattening the lower back…like a lot of WCK people do. Letting the kwa “float” avoids the slumped/humped over posture you see so often in WCK as well. By letting the kwa “float” I feel I am ready to move in any direction and respond as needed…moving with the “six directional forces.” Not “locking” the kwa also allows one to use waist action in producing Fa Jing…kind of like snapping a whip. I can put both hands flat on my dummy with arms extended and “hit” the dummy without drawing my hands back or losing contact with the surface of the dummy. Am I close to what you are talking about? :slight_smile:

6

[QUOTE=KPM;1072733]Hey Hendrik!

Thanks for the descriptions!

It sounds to me that what you are referring to as “levitate”, is what I refer to as “having a floating kwa.” Standing in YGKYM with a “floating kwa” means that you have not “locked in” the kwa by rolling the hips forward and flattening the lower back…like a lot of WCK people do. Letting the kwa “float” avoids the slumped/humped over posture you see so often in WCK as well. By letting the kwa “float” I feel I am ready to move in any direction and respond as needed…moving with the “six directional forces.” Not “locking” the kwa also allows one to use waist action in producing Fa Jing…kind of like snapping a whip. I can put both hands flat on my dummy with arms extended and “hit” the dummy without drawing my hands back or losing contact with the surface of the dummy. Am I close to what you are talking about? :)[/QUOTE]

exploring toward that direction is good since Kwa is a part of the body.

Further investigation is needed because Kwa and other parts of the body such as tail bone…etc are inter-related. and loosing the Kwa could be done even with the flattening the lower back…etc. also it is related to which breathing phase one is in. and flattening the lower back ect are not a hinderance to levitate. one can have a flattening of the lower back and still loose because the whole body has aligned up.

I called it levitate because it feels like levitate when every joints are not hold on to something or lock up.

and only at this state that the “snake engine” activate because every joints sync with other joints and make up of the whole body without and break down in between — ideally from the toes to the finger tip.

also, Qi flow will come into the picture once the joins are loosing up.

As for fajing, what you done is using the waist torque to generate the momentum. CLF do that Chen Taiji do that, that is one way of use human body.

different style of TCMA has different momentum generation also complex momentum generation as I have mention in other of my post on Hino Akira. WCk’s inch jin is more complex then that thus it is capable of smaller visible motion then the waist torque type which has to deal with the innertial and also pick up speed which require bigger movement before the waist whip.

So, levitate is a very basic but critical basic to enter into dynamic structure or make the art alive. or turn on the engine of the SLT.

7

Apparantly levitation is the new anti-grappling.

Hilarious!!! :D:D:D

8

Is there any way that we can see some clips about this?

Someone said that clips are only good to demo external skill, internal skill cannot be seen which I’m still not convincing yet. We can see sticky, yield, follow, borrow force, … clearly in many clips. Even “a feather cannot land” is not that hard to demo.

9

Fairplay!!! In all my years involved in Martial Arts and specifically the ones in Ving Tsun I have never heard so much BS as what has been wrote above. WTF??? You people are on drugs for sure!!! :eek::eek::eek::confused::confused::confused:

GH

10

I think the gist of what Hendrik wrote to be a fairly good description of the core WCK body mechanic.

Part of Hendrik’s problem is that in describing/explaining it he is all over the place. He often use very poor word choice IMO. Terms like “levitation”, “6 directional force vectors”, etc. don’t help explain to describe things – they only obfuscate. This could be a language barrier (English is his 4th or 5th language) or simply confused thinking.

A different part of Hendrik’s problem is that with all his talk about why this or that mechanic is “bad” only misses the point. There are no bad mechanics. Mechanics are paired with a task – you use your body a certain way to do a certain task. If you use inappropriate mechanics for the task, you won’t be able to perform the task for perform it well. He should instead focus on what you want to do in WCK and why you NEED these specific WCK mechanics to do that. Then you immediately grasp why other mechanics will not be appropriate.

11

Part of Hendrik’s problem is that in describing/explaining it he is all over the place. He often use very poor word choice IMO. Terms like “levitation”, “6 directional force vectors”, etc. don’t help explain to describe things – they only obfuscate.

perhaps you are right.

Perhaps due to you have not attain these state that you dont know what it is.

Why is it called Levitate is clearly describe in my previous post. It is a name for something it is not intending for explain anything. Such as Apple is apple unless one has tasted apple; no matter how explain it one simply cant get it ;because it is an experience not a mind simulation.

A different part of Hendrik’s problem is that with all his talk about why this or that mechanic is “bad” only misses the point. There are no bad mechanics.

Mechanics are paired with a task – you use your body a certain way to do a certain task.

If you use inappropriate mechanics for the task, you won’t be able to perform the task for perform it well.

.

you are contradicting yourself.

There are certainly bad mechanics like bend over from the front sit to the back sit to pick up something in the back sit.

sure, it does the job of picking up something but it is in effective and problematic.

He should instead focus on what you want to do in WCK and why you NEED these specific WCK mechanics to do that.

Then you immediately grasp why other mechanics will not be appropriate

My be you need to re read my previous posts.

12

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1072751]Is there any way that we can see some clips about this?

Someone said that clips are only good to demo external skill, internal skill cannot be seen which I’m still not convincing yet. We can see sticky, yield, follow, borrow force, … clearly in many clips. Even “a feather cannot land” is not that hard to demo.[/QUOTE]

Where is your youtube on doing Taiji which you said if I post my stuffs you will post yours? I am waiting.

13

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1072768]perhaps you are right.

Perhaps due to you have not attain these state that you dont know what it is.

Why is it called Levitate is clearly describe in my previous post. It is a name for something it is not intending for explain anything. Such as Apple is apple unless one has tasted apple; no matter how explain it one simply cant get it ;because it is an experience not a mind simulation.
[/QUOTE]

But you are not “levitating” – levitate means “to rise or float in or as if in the air especially in seeming defiance of gravitation.” http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/levitate

So, is that what is REALLY happening? Is anyone floating in the air in defiance of gravity? No.

I KNOW – and have experienced – what you are trying to describe. But, “levitate” is a very poor way to describe it.

And it is disingenuous to argue that “if you haven’t tasted it, then no one can explain it.” If it can’t be explained, then don’t try! To try to explain it when it can’t be explained is pointless. And, if it is difficult to explain or describe, using inappropriate words like “levitate” won’t help you get your point across – it will only make it more difficult to get your point across.

you are contradicting yourself.

There are certainly bad mechanics like bend over from the front sit to the back sit to pick up something in the back sit.

sure, it does the job of picking up something but it is in effective and problematic.

There is no contradiction. You are describing inappropriate mechanics for a particular task – but those mechanics may be fine for some other task. That is my point: mechanics and task go hand-in-hand. So, if you want to talk about using mechanics, you also need to talk about the task.

My be you need to re read my previous posts.

I have. That is why I pointed out that you keep separating mechanics from task.

14

Here is the standard definition of the word “levitate” from dictionary.com

lev·i·tate /lvtet/ Show Spelled
[lev-i-teyt] Show IPA
verb, -tat·ed, -tat·ing.
–verb (used without object)

  1. to rise or float in the air, esp. as a result of a supernatural power that overcomes gravity.
    –verb (used with object)
  2. to cause to rise or float in the air.

My main issue with the claims of the OP is that there is no “technique”, “fa jing”, “power generation”, or any other method of training WCK that will legitimately cause someone to rise or float in the air.

However, we can see this type of thing in many Hollywood movies where this type of thing is performed by stunt wires.

But nowhere in the realm of reality is anything like this even something to be considered in conjunction with training a realistic martial art.

So refute this logically if you want, Hendrick.

And Sihing73, if you’re going to delete this post then leave up here your logic so anybody who wants to participate in this forum will see up front the type of thinking involved with the moderation of this forum.

Thanks.

15

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1072768]Why is it called Levitate is clearly describe in my previous post. It is a name for something it is not intending for explain anything. Such as Apple is apple unless one has tasted apple; no matter how explain it one simply cant get it ;because it is an experience not a mind simulation.
[/QUOTE]

If you can’t understand the English language enough to pick the correct word in your description of things, and you are too stubborn to receive feedback from others who do understand the English language, then my suggestion would be that posting on internet forums is not something you should be doing.

Or I guess the other option is that we could find a place where this is acceptable and delete all the other postings from people who don’t agree.

16

[QUOTE=KPM;1072733]Hey Hendrik!

Thanks for the descriptions!

It sounds to me that what you are referring to as “levitate”, is what I refer to as “having a floating kwa.” Standing in YGKYM with a “floating kwa” means that you have not “locked in” the kwa by rolling the hips forward and flattening the lower back…like a lot of WCK people do. Letting the kwa “float” avoids the slumped/humped over posture you see so often in WCK as well. By letting the kwa “float” I feel I am ready to move in any direction and respond as needed…moving with the “six directional forces.” Not “locking” the kwa also allows one to use waist action in producing Fa Jing[/QUOTE]

shoot, that’s all it is, here I was thinking it was something much more, when it’s just relaxing and allowing your weight to sink to the ground naturally making adjustment in body structure to make this optimum. Same stuff that zan zhuang develops over time:)

17

Hendrik and “levitation”.

Words can be assigned meanings in quite different ways- connotation, denotation, implication, explication etc—in addition to epistemological differences in perspectives.

Thus nibbhana or nirvana is a state that is to be achieved or purely subjective perceptions to be dropped.

Snake can be a particular kind of a reptile (biology), it can be symbolic (evil), descriptive- a toy, functional-snake like.. a motion-non linear or energy distribution etc.

Dictionary definitions are ok for denotation.. they have their shortcomings in connotation. Yet words have to be used in chat lists- so if interested in serious conversation- one has to try and understand the perspective of the word user. despite the differences..

Levitation in the sense that Hendrik is using it- is something according to him that is experienced if the guidelines that he provides are used. Then it becomes an empirical issue for that person- it can be pointed to but not denoted. You feel it or you don’t.

When you are in ygkym and the skeletal structure is well coordinated and the joints opened up- the claim is in part that it is equivalent but not the same as the standing stake postures of taiji, I chuan etc.

Hendrik no longer fights and what he talks about is not enough for fighting- one still needs to be clear on mechanics, structure, timing, physical and mental training, clearing one’s head etc.

Joy Chaudhuri

18

Perhaps “riding” is a better word than “levitating”.

19

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1072775]shoot, that’s all it is, here I was thinking it was something much more, when it’s just relaxing and allowing your weight to sink to the ground naturally making adjustment in body structure to make this optimum. Same stuff that zan zhuang develops over time:)[/QUOTE]

The biggest problem IMHO is people keep thinking the general Southern TCMA Standing in horse stance, weight sink to ground = Zan Zhuang.

In the reality those two are 1000000000000 miles away.

BTW Zan Zhuang the proper type which is well train doesnt sink weight to the ground. and also the so called naturally making adjustment or just do it if there is an application just mean one does it randomly.

20

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1072781]The biggest problem IMHO is people keep thinking the general Southern TCMA Standing in horse stance, weight sink to ground = Zan Zhuang.

In the reality those two are 1000000000000 miles away.

BTW Zan Zhuang the proper type which is well train doesnt sink weight to the ground. and also the so called naturally making adjustment or just do it if there is an application just mean one does it randomly.[/QUOTE]

here is something that might interest you

"Hellebrandt (1940) was one of the first to demonstrate that even the erect standing posture is not literally static. “Standing,” she concluded, “is, in reality, movement upon a stationary base.” Her experiments using scales and a reaction board revealed that the center of gravity did not remain motionless above the base of support, no matter how still the subject attempted to stand, but moved forward, backward, and sideward. This motion indicated that the subjects were constantly swaying. When the swaying was prevented by artificial means, there was a tendency to faint. Thus the involuntary swaying was seen to serve the purpose of a pump, aiding the venous return and ensuring the brain of adequate circulation for retaining consciousness.
–Nancy Hamilton, et al., Kinesiology: Scientific Basis of Human Motion, 8e, (2008, McGraw-Hill), p. 394

In the same book, the author reviews analysis of muscular activity in “erect standing” or “normal standing,” which resembles the beginning taiji posture (legs shoulder-width apart, arms at sides). Beginning with the muscles of the foot: “None of the intrinsic musculature is active during normal standing but become active in the push-off for walking or rising on the toes.” The legs: “The posterior calf muscles are more active than the anterior ones. Any swaying forward or backward produces compensatory muscle action to bring the body back to the vertical balance position.” The thigh and hip: “Very little activity occurs in the thigh muscles during relaxed standing. Swaying produces alternating burst of activity in the gluteus medius and tensor fasciae latae. . . .The iliopsoas is constantly active, apparently to prevent hyperextension at the hip joint.” The spine: “There is very slight activity in the sacrospinalis or abdominal muscles, depending on the relation of the line of gravity to the spinal column. Activity is exhibited in one or the other of the two sets of muscles. Slight to moderate back muscle activity is more likely than abdominal muscle activity.” And upper extremities: “The integrity of the joints in the passively hanging extremity is assisted by low-grade activity in a number of muscles. The serratus anterior and the fibers of the trapezius support the shoulder girdle, and the supraspinatus resists the downward dislocation of the humerus. There appears to be no activity in the muscles crossing the elbow or wrist joints when the arm hangs passively.” (ibid., p. 393)"