Although it´s difficult to make a statement which fits to every student:
what are you experiences in teaching forms a year or so to a student?
How many are too much? How many are not much enough?
To make the whole thing comparable: let´s say a student who trains 2-3 times a week with no longer absent times than 1 week in a quarter.
Students also feel free to answer! Your perspectives might be much more worth than from a teacher! 
I wait until the student has learned the 14 roads and understands the tactics involved before I even think about teaching an empty hand set. I honestly haven’t been teaching on my own long enough to think about years.
But I’ve never been a collector of forms so to speak, I have a hand full that I play regularly and that’s all I need for now. With basics alone and a couple of forms you can keep yourself busy for a looooong time. I’ll practice empty hand forms, 14 ways and iron arm on my own when I don’t have any one to work out with.
That depends on many different things. It may depend on the skill level of the student or whether the student is just a
“entertainment type of student” or a serious Martial artist.
If you know the “entertainment student” will only be around for 6 months or so and wants to spend a bunch of extra money on extra forms, “God Bless em”.
Every student is different as far as forms are concerned.
I have found it takes about five years to develop an advanced level student and about 7 or 8 to be an instructor.
German
If you want my definition of an advanced level student or instructor I could tell you in a pm if you want .
About 1 form every 2 months. After a few years, it would be about 1 or 2 forms a year.
After a cumulative of many forms you would have to fine tune the forms and learn its application and the number of ways to apply the same technique. And also find the most effective coordination to apply each technique.
One form a month is too much!
It all depends on the student . How much time they put in (at home ) and how well they pick up the style . Are we talking about fist forms or weapon forms ? Again the time will vary depending on the student .
A question to ask is how quickley can you ( as an instructor ) pick up a form ?
Are we on about learning the moves or what the moves actual mean ?
How long did it take yourself to learn your first form ?
These are all what you must consider and remember when passing on the forms to your students .
Great going …
I try to answer some questions:
Sayloc: yes send a PM.
Shirker1: yes this could be a way. For me it would be not enough. Knowing a forms and practice them means a lot to me. It´s the salt in the soup, the basics of the art!
Wolfen: yes, it´s me and I´m from Lee Kam Wing Linage.
To all: I think I´m at the same than MantisCool. Normally I teach 5-7 forms (including 2 weapons) per year. That fits of course only to the student who is willing to train and to learn. Most students just want to have a great time and some fun.
Sometimes (very rare) a student is very talented and trains more than everyone else. He probably is able to learn up to 8-10 forms.
Sure, it all depends on a lot of different things. But it is interesting how you see this matter of teaching …
Impatiently waiting on more answers!
ahh Wolfen: I asked because a student said: oh my god. I´m filled up with forms, I don´t want to learn another one in the next year! 
She´s training now for over 4 years and knows now 22-25 forms… maybe enough for a livetime.
Basic level is about 7 forms. 5 open hand Forms and two Weapons (Gwan and Daan Dou), maybe a partnerset.
Intermediate are 10 additional forms, 4 Weapons. Maybe 2 additional partnersets.
Advanced … well plenty of forms more.
Our system is structured a little differently. It is set up like building blocks or “steps”
When student first comes in he is shown 10 body coordinations. This simply teaches him correct posture, hand- eye coordination and balance. Essentially to begin to move like a martial artist.
The next level he is shown individual static postures,
ie 8 different stances, 8 fists, 8 palms, 8 kicks etc etc..
Then in the next level he is taught to put these static postures into movement, thus stringing them together.
We have a total of 5 forms
1 beginner (Chi sao)
2 intermediate, (Xiao fanche and Da fan che)
2 advanced (Lipi and Lanjie)
Once they become fluid with these movements they start over and are taught the fighting applications to the 10 body coordinations, the 8"s and the forms.
I have found this to be very effective.
One one hand they are learning the forms without distraction of what they are for or focusing on incorrect intent.
Then on the other when they start to understand the form they are showed the purpose in fighting therory and praticality.
I do not set a time limit on learning but on average can say I teach beginners 1-3 forms in the first year.
After that about 2-3 forms per year with every 5th form a weapon form. I would teach fewer forms for the sake of spending more time on developing technique – but students are always chomping at the bit to learn more forms. I understand this I was once there myself. Fortunately we have many forms in our line.
I would like to comment on this – our forms are so rich and appealing that I think that you can end up spending so much time learning new forms and acquiring new knowledge… that you don’t take time to ‘stop and smell the roses’.
Well, I have to admit that I went through a period of ‘forms collecting’ and having learned some 40-50 Mantis forms I now have the luxury of studying them at my leisure. So in my opinion it was time well spent.
Currently I have been studying Flying Goose Palm (for the last 10 months) and will probably stick with it till some time next spring. Just as I think I have seen all there is to see in this form lo and behold some new depth reveals itself and I am at it all over again.
For those who are learning 5-10 forms a year I encourage you to be sure and take some time to stop and smell the roses.
Best regards,
UM.
I’ve always thought that one nice meaty form a year was a good guide.
line drills, short forms (Pong Lai’s first mantis set is just 8 moves, repeated in both directions) don’t count for that rule of thumb, imo.
However, in Pong Lai, the goal seems to be maybe 2 a year which I think is a good goal for the serious student.
I agree, it seems, with GBL,again, that there are the students who aren’t going to be hardcore and that’s ok, let them learn at their own pace. But, there should always be room, time and a place for the folks that want to train as a lifestyle.
I have seen students come to our school to learn and are very gifted and able to pick up many forms in a year . These are the exception . I myself have picked up forms in a very short time but it takes many months , even years to develope the form and understand the emphisis behind it and the breakdown of it .
This is where the skill comes from . To have 25 forms under your belt in 5 years is very good but can you break the forms down and pull out the required techniques ?
We have to learn the forms , develope them and then be able to spar using only the techniques from a perticular form . This reinforces that we have understood the form .
We structure the learning process depending on the student , but I suppose on average 2-3 forms a year for beginners and then increase from there depending on ability and commitment from the student . We only ever have small class sizes to make sure that all students are able to be guided as best possible .
Re: Training methods
Originally posted by wolfen
Because you run a commercial club you might have a problem if the next time that student had a class you only did one move for an entire session. But that is what i mean is classical training.
I think that’s something that depends on the individuals in the class and what they are expecting to get out of training. For example, in my thai class, we’ve been working the teep (push kick) and it’s intricacies, variations, drills, etc. for the past three weeks. We will end the class with additional drills and with sparring, so interest stays high. But most of the individuals in the class looking to compete. they know the importance of the teep, and my guess is that that’s part of the reason why we are getting no complaints.
I think the complete technical knowledge also needs knowledge of training methods and coaching methods.
definitely.
Another thing it seems to me there is the conflct of the modern and traditional systems. In the one is testing and rank. In the other is the family relationships. In the latter structure someone who joins before you and learned some programme is your elder. You cannot pass a test and outrank them.
How do people deal with this in the modern school?
I personally don’t see a problem with ranking, or with a newer student surpassing an older one. Let’s say the older student stops coming regularly and the newer student surpasses him in skill and possibly in knowledge. Why should he be ranked under the older guy, who slacked off? Perhaps there should be two rankings - the familial and the skill based?
i am also training in lee kam wings lineage.
Ive been training for not that long in both wing chun and mantis - about 3 - 4 months. Ive currently learnt
14 routes
bung bo + apps
gung lik kuen + apps
daw kwan
and im a bit through blacktiger but im only gonna start that after december really.
i am developping my speed quite well too but i still struggle to do bung bo in 15 seconds - more like 23 minimum but i dont think that matters yet.
i think everyone progresses how they want and if you’re willing to put in the training then you reap the rewards.
craig
Sorry to barge in but…really? 40-50 forms? Why on earth for? I teach baguazhang and we don’t really do forms. Beyond collecting or preservation, how could so many forms serve you well?
Buddy
monkey foot,
how on earth in 90 to 120 days could you possibly learn 4 forms and the fighting applications to 2 of them? I find this highly unlikely and hard to imagine.
I teach the fighting applications after the 2nd year of learning the form and only the applications never together other wise you are learning the movement and appplication together before you have a solid grasp on the solo moves themselves.
Otherwise you will not have the neccessary foundation to learn to fight with the movments correctly. please explain.
Originally posted by Buddy
Sorry to barge in but…really? 40-50 forms? Why on earth for? I teach baguazhang and we don’t really do forms. Beyond collecting or preservation, how could so many forms serve you well?
Buddy
Well Buddy, that is exactly the point, preservation of the system.
I can only speak for 7 Star. Some lines of 7 Star have 20 or less forms including weapons while others have over 100 forms including weapons.
That is quite a bit of diversity. TangLang has grown from 1 initial form to literally dozens of forms.
Yet the core of 7 Star can be found in 1 or 2 forms in fact I have said before that if I had to prune it down to a handful of forms I could and that I would maintain the same practical, fundamental and basic knowledge of the system. You can after all only study one form at a time.
So why so many forms? We have the base forms which define the system and without them TangLang would be very difficult to describe. These are considered to be the oldest and clearest depiction of TangLang. They number less than a handful according to my study.
The many forms that followed are post-inception contributions from past Masters who graciously shared their unique knowledge of PM by passing it down to us.
Other forms are the result of the grafting of non-TangLang systems into TangLang, again by past Masters. This is one of the ways our system adapts and learns and in my opinion has to figure highly for it’s survival and popularity.
So here are some key points for ‘so many forms’:
I would like to say more but have to go.
Best Regards,
UM.
Monkeyfoot ,
As you are a beginner to the 7 star style you should not be worrying about how fast you can do beng bu . 15 seconds ? You need to slow down and make sure each movement is correct . The speed of the form comes from understanding the form and constant practice and over time . It is the mistake of many people to rush through the forms thinking that the faster the better .
I have been doing that form for half my life on a daily basis and it takes me longer than 15 seconds . There is more to the movements than meets the eye and you will need to learn when you apply the power to the techniques as you perform them or else when you come to apply them in a situation they will not work .
That is why along with basic footwork, hands, and some other stuff I teach the 14 ways first before the student even starts to tackle an empty hand set. The student has to know the 14 ways inside and out, backwards and forwards before I concider it. That way when it comes time to do the empty hand sets most of the ideas and tactics are already engrained in the students movements. He’s already seen a lot of the stuff that’s in the empty hand sets and is comfortable with the movements. He can pick up the form with greater understanding. Most of the forms are the same tactics in different sequence any way. Not all but a lot of stuff is reapeated. So I don’t see having to learn so many forms in a year. That is crazy to me.
You should be playing the empty hand sets at least 10 times a day for each individual set. If you have 40 sets under your belt as a beginner then when do you have time for your other training? I think certain sets fit certain students and can help that student better his technique. To cloud his mind with soooo much information could hinder the student in the long run. Just my two cents. But I’ve been doing it for years and I can’t see having all those forms floating around in my head and playing them all regularly.
i learn about 6 forms in a year, it sounds like a lot, and it is im sure. i dont practice them all. i can do them all. there are a few core ones i practice a lot that supply me with a nice foundation. my first form was the wubu chuan, i did that for 6 months and the first long fist many people have for another 3. i like forms more then fighting, but learning the application behind the forms is fun always.
I agreed with Ursa Major on preservation of the system, contributions from past masters who graciously shared their unique knowledges and ideas, the infusion of other systems as to adapt to changes and survival and thus to keep ahead of the others.
So the many forms are partly due to the above reasons and secondly, many forms doesnt mean that they are repetitive they are infact techniques used in a lot of combinatons. If you practised only a handful then you would missed out many of its possible combinatons. And some of the forms are also quite unique like Ba Zhou and Lan Jie. You cant find its usage in other forms. If you missed out these forms then you have missed out a part of the mantis!
;
I didn’t say never learn the forms, but to learn so many forms in one year is not going to better your mantis. I clearly said that most of the forms go over the same tactics in different sequences. It’s still the same tactic. There is way to much to work on to have 20 forms in one year to play. I don’t see you being able to do it correctly. Maybe that’s why I see so many people out there doing forms that look like absolute nonsense. I’m stirring the pot here with that comment, but the forms aren’t just hand and body gestures. They are tactics and if you don’t understand the body mechanics so on and so on you are just going through the motions. I don’t care how gifted you are you are not going to be able to properly learn that many forms in that short of a time and be able to play them correctly.
Now I hear the argument that the forms teach you this. Well what if you have a foundation before you learn an empty hand set? When you get to the form you have basic knowledge of mantis and you can apply that to your form. Fighting application and proper motion for power etc. If you learn the motions first then learn how to properly apply the tactics later you have to learn it twice. I don’t see this being very healthy.
“14 routes
bung bo + apps
gung lik kuen + apps
daw kwan
and im a bit through blacktiger but im only gonna start that after december really.”
This is just rediculous. 4 months and you have all of this? Who is your teacher? Why would so much info be crammed into such a short period of time? The whole 15 seconds thing is out of this world as well. You have to be talking about the first line or something.