[QUOTE=CFT;1038800]Never mind the politics. The issue of the number of forms is an interesting one. Besides the weapons forms, which empty hand forms encapsulate the essence of 7* Praying Mantis? You wouldn’t think that more than half a dozen is necessary.
One should never look down on “beginner sets”. There is a good reason they are the foundation practices.[/QUOTE]
Good topic for discussion. It doesn’t need to be buried in that other thread.
fer real
You need one - it’s “Sub Sa Lo” (I always spell it wrong). I’ve outlined my rationale in other posts.
I am not a PM man, nor have I ever studied Norther PM, but having done MA for over 30 years and having gone through numerous forms in Kyokushin, ITF TKD, Hung Kuen, WC, SPM I can say this:
You don’t need them at all.
That said, forms are great fun, if you enjoy them.
At one point I knew about 50 forms and 4 different sanchin forms, LOL !
Nowadays I train 3 forms only - 2 types of Sanchin and the Iron wire.
The rest is freestyle.
For myself, I feel that I only need a few forms and those forms are ones that I feel cater to my fighting style and methods of conditioning.
For my students, I feel that it is important to pass on all the forms I know.
Who am I to say what forms are necessary. Everyone has a different approach to fighting, so I say that I will give a person all of the tools in the toolbox and focus on teaching them how best to use those tools. Then they can decide which tools are right for them.
As I said in he other thread, (PS sorry it got derailed by the 9 post new guy) I learned 5 forms I teach 5 forms, the applications areadly over lapp, so i couldnt imagine have more what’s the point?
forms are great for telling your story, adding your flavor.
Balance, flexabilty, speed, timing, agility, and cardio are by products.
If you can apply the movements found in your styles forms in combat or in training then how many different ways do you need to reach to same goal?
everthing lse is just for show and collecting
When you learn a new form, you have to ask yourself, what will this new form help you? What will you miss if you don’t learn this new form? Many school had integrated froms from other style. The Nanking CMA Institute and the Shanghai Chinwoo school all integrated Kung Li Chuan from the Kung Li system as their basic training form. Why waste time to learn that form? If you can just scrach the surface of the Kung Li style, it’s not going to help you very much.
If you go through elementary school 6 times, you won’t get a PhD degree. If you just take one class from college, you won’t get your BS/BA degree either.
A big change for me
came about when a video production client gave me a book called “Strong on Defense” by Sanford Strong. It’s not a technique book. It’s just a book that describes the aftermath of violent crimes. It apparently is the same training that police use to understand and deal with sudden violence.
One thing that becomes apparent IMO is that martial arts training as it is currently being trained (sport or traditional) isn’t effective for self defense. It’s great for focus, spiritual, balance, health… etc, but it’s not good self defense- it can be, but it requires a huge mental shift and approach. Read the book for more info.
Anyway- one solid form. Be aggressive in defense. Don’t worry about injuries to yourself. K.I.S.S. I think Sub Sa Lo handles this very well for 7* Mantis.
this isn’t to say that I don’t respect the system or all of the forms. I just feel that it’s not all that necessary to focus on learning all of the forms.
[QUOTE=DBAC;1038880]For myself, I feel that I only need a few forms and those forms are ones that I feel cater to my fighting style and methods of conditioning.
For my students, I feel that it is important to pass on all the forms I know.
Who am I to say what forms are necessary. Everyone has a different approach to fighting, so I say that I will give a person all of the tools in the toolbox and focus on teaching them how best to use those tools. Then they can decide which tools are right for them.[/QUOTE]
One thing I should mention… I don’t plan on being a Mantis Sifu, so my outlook and approach is definitely unique to me.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1038901]I don’t plan on being a Mantis Sifu, so my outlook and approach is definitely unique to me.[/QUOTE]
Agree on this! Since I no longer want to be a Longfist teacher, I don’t teach or train Longfist forms any more (I think Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming is doing a goog job - we share the same Longfist teacher). I had combined all my Longfist form into 1 form, “(Chang Chuan Zhai Yao)”. Today I don’t even train or teach that form. Today the only thing that I train is “60 different drills”.
MightyB,
Glad to see someone beat me to this. I get tired of sounding like Capt. Continual Questions. 
I’m sure some peeps must think that I don’t have anyone else to talk to except the KFO forums. Not true, the voices in my head keep me very busy! 
I teach four mantis forms:
Beng Bu - it covers the twelve keywords
Lanjie - as the name implies, it covers intercepting
Ba Zhou - it emphasizes short power from the core
Diao Fa - it summarizes the trademark clawing and hooking methods
If I were to add another it would be Da Fanche or Xiao Fanche to emphasize long arm attacks.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1038918]Lanjie - as the name implies, it covers intercepting.[/QUOTE]
The 2nd move of this form, "(Wu Da Lian Huan Pi) is a very important intermediate training method in the 7 star Mantis system. It forces you to use your body to pull your arm up, down, left, right, and forward (body pull limbs). You don’t see that in the Beng Bu. This’s why this form is so important in the Mantis intermediate level training. You only see the body move and you don’t see the limbs moves. This Shenfa is quite different from the Karate downward or upward block that you only see the arm move and you don’t see the body move.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1038923]The 2nd move of this form, "(Wu Da Lian Huan Pi) is a very important intermediate training method in the 7 star Mantis system. It forces you you to use your body to pull your arm up, down, left, right, and forward. You don’t see that in the Beng Bu. This’s why this form is so important in the Mantis intermediate level training.[/QUOTE]
Not all 7* schools include that in their Lanjie. 
Though it is found in TJPM, TJMHPM and CCKTJPM. CCKTJPM actually has lengthened it to more than 5 moves (10 moves if memory serves me correctly).
Though excellent point about Five Strike Continuous Circle Splitting ((Wu Da Lian Huan Pi) YouKnowWho!
At one time I learned over a dozen mantis sets… eventually, I forgot most of them except Beng Bu and Shi Ba Shou. I still play Beng Bu a lot for fun, or if people want to see fancy gung fu, rather than ugly WCK, and I don’t feel like doing Hung Kuen.
The 3 Mei Hua sets are good.
The Zai Yao sets are good also.
Tang Lang Chu Dong is also very good.
I have learned too many forms. Its better to have the essence in one set.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1038926]CCKTJPM actually has lengthened it to more than 5 moves (10 moves if memory serves me correctly).[/QUOTE]
I saw Mantis master (Sun De Long) did that. I think he combined “(Zuo You Er Yin Yang) - left and right double circles” and then added a forward (Yin Yang) at the end. Nothing wrong with that. It balanced pretty good too.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1038927]The Zai Yao sets are good also.[/QUOTE]
It was so funny that Mantis system tried to use Zai Yao to summarize (draw conclusion) all their information in their last form. They ended up with more than one Zai Yao (summary) instead.
Same reason as the last Harry Potter movie will end with 2 movies. It may be too long to be in one movie, or the movie company just tried to make more money out of it toward the end.
“I learned 5 forms I teach 5 forms, the applications areadly over lapp, so i couldnt imagine have more what’s the point?”
Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?
And what if you encountered someone who was an experienced martial artist(of a different style perhaps) and found that the 5 you were taught, just had elements to them which..were not up to par with what this guy was bringing to the table?
Obviously(just using logic here), there was an element of satisfaction in whatever # of forms existed in the original kung fu style(whatever style you can name), but yet..just using reasoning alone..there must have been an element of “this alone is not enough”..otherwise other forms would not have been added or modifed to form the end product.
This isn’t to say that any of the 4 pillar sets of Hung Ga alone are bad forms..or Beng Bu(Bung Bo) being the mother form of all mantis is somewhow lacking, or Sil Lum Tao of Wing Cun is deficient…
But whoever designed these styles must have felt that there was going to be an instance in the future where the “what if” factor pops up. “What if” being “well..what if this doesn’t work..I need to have option B”.
just a novice really, but…
Maybe it’s me, but I don’t believe more forms equals more techniques to apply to different situations. Shouldn’t the techniques you’ve learned be applicable to multiple situations? My teacher always stresses that every movement in a form has multiple variations of the movement, slight alterations, and that each of those variations has multiple applications depending on what your opponent sends your way.
And in a fight of equals, isn’t it really down to each fighter’s skill level, not how many techniques they know?
My sifu always quotes to us that “A jack of all trades is a master of none” when someone asks how many techniques should they learn and how many forms do we need.
But, like I said, I consider myself a novice, so… just my two cents. 
Cheers!
~josh~
Josh,
“Shouldn’t the techniques you’ve learned be applicable to multiple situations?”
Yes..of course! But that’s STILL not the reason why someone learns more than one form.
No form by itself even with said techniques being applicable to multiple situations, is going to contain all applications.
That’s the reason why other forms are developed in the first place!
[QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1039203]
Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?
And what if you encountered someone who was an experienced martial artist(of a different style perhaps) and found that the 5 you were taught, just had elements to them which..were not up to par with what this guy was bringing to the table?
[/QUOTE]
Honestly - I’d have no problem fighting someone who claims to know 1000 forms. Doesn’t matter because in no way does number of forms learned or known effect one’s ability to apply the material.
You have to be able to apply a technique under extreme stress. And forget any notion of “for the street” because all martial arts sport and traditional are poor excuses for self defense in a real life or death violent encounter.
The only thing that can save you is an escape plan, mental preparation, planning and drilling your escape plan with your family, an understanding of the criminal MO (violent criminals are accomplished liars and recidivists meaning they intend to rape and torture your loved ones and kill you so do not believe them when they say do this and you won’t get hurt), a complete focus on escape coupled with the notion that injury is to be expected and not feared (you’re going to be stabbed and shot while you escape)…
Anyway - got sidetracked… Forms are fun, you can find value in combination set ups through analyzing a form. There’s no magic skill that comes from the number of forms you know. After about 3 to 5 empty hand forms, it’s all redundant and you won’t get anything new - take it from me, I’ve been taught around 50 or so forms, not saying I remember them all.
And - the most boring form of all is probably the best.
[QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1039203]“I learned 5 forms I teach 5 forms, the applications areadly over lapp, so i couldnt imagine have more what’s the point?”
Because what if you fought someone who ALSO knew the SAME 5 forms? Do you see a problem arising?
And what if you encountered someone who was an experienced martial artist(of a different style perhaps) and found that the 5 you were taught, just had elements to them which..were not up to par with what this guy was bringing to the table?
Obviously(just using logic here), there was an element of satisfaction in whatever # of forms existed in the original kung fu style(whatever style you can name), but yet..just using reasoning alone..there must have been an element of “this alone is not enough”..otherwise other forms would not have been added or modifed to form the end product.
This isn’t to say that any of the 4 pillar sets of Hung Ga alone are bad forms..or Beng Bu(Bung Bo) being the mother form of all mantis is somewhow lacking, or Sil Lum Tao of Wing Cun is deficient…
But whoever designed these styles must have felt that there was going to be an instance in the future where the “what if” factor pops up. “What if” being “well..what if this doesn’t work..I need to have option B”.[/QUOTE]
My no forms would beat your many forms like an out of work h00ker.