Why So Many Forms?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

Hello, List:

In my recent studies with Lee Kam Wing Sifu, I was told by him that the 7 Star Mantis style only has 82 forms including the Lo Hon Gung.

These words come from the only active Sifu under Chiu Chi Man SiGung. All others have retired or not interested in teaching mantis to anyone.

Why, is it then that some 7 Star Mantis families have added extra forms into the complete curriculum of the 7 Star Mantis system?.

I don’t see the logic behind it at all. Granted it’s cool to know some different sets, but for what? You have a hard enough time mastering what you are suppose to know.

I am very happy that Lee Kam Wing Sifu has accepted me as his student and appointed me his representative for the State of New York. I don’t disregard what my Sifu’s have taught me, but what has really happened here is that now, we can put everything that we have learned in the past in it’s right place.

Lee Kam Wing Sifu, has made some corrections to my forms, but I have notice that it has been corrections of symantics, rather than “boy that whole form is wrong”. This has made me feel secure in the teachers that I have had in the past.

Finally we have here in the United States the opportunity to train with a true master of the 7 Star Mantis style and he is willing to share it with everyone who is willing to learn the proper way of doing 7 Star Mantis, regardless of what your concepts are in your method of teaching fighting.

So, again to my question, why 110 or 180 forms?

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

“Concepts are an act of experience”
R. Ortiz, Jr.

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

2

I too have often wonderd about why so many sets in
the mantis system. i have 2 questions. these are directed towards noted long time players or Sifu of 7* system.

  1. what would you consider the number of sets needed to understand the core princaples and usage of the style.

  2. what if thier is such a thing would be the minamal number and sets one would need to know.

these are things that i have wonderd about, thanks for any insights.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

3

QXTL,…

You are the rep of NY,…give us your opinion of why! Many of us (most actually) here are not qualified to answer such a question.
Give us the scoup if you will!!
-BTL

“Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?”

4

bamboo_leaf:

In my opinion is not how many forms you know, but how well you know them. Also, the fact of the matter is this. To learn the complete system of mantis, you must learm 82 forms.

Lee Kam Wing Sifu said that there are 6 very important forms in the 7 Star Mantis. They teach the inner essence in mantis.

These major six forms you must master in and out to understand the mantis system. You can’t really learn mantis if you do not understand these forms.

Hope this was of help.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

5

BTL:

I’m in no position of qualification to be able and answer that question either.

All I want to know is why? If Lo Kwang Yu taught 82 forms, then why are some schools teaching more.

What was the purpose?

Don’t get me wrong sometimes more is good!

Peace

Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

6

thanks, good informantion from one the of leaders in our field.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

7

Well for what ever reason a paticular sect uses as many sets to define there style is there reason as far as I see it…

The reason someone may add a form some where down the line may be to leave there mark on Mantis.. Sort of a legacy… NO one knows how many forms Wong Long created or How many are truly from the original roots… Lo Kwan yu added or created sets… HE did this is he wrong from adding to his masters system…???

I feel the answer to this is NO!!! As long as you follow the guide lines of the system heck scratch that as long as you improve and enhance a system add a way.. Each teacher will instruct and prove their training diffrently.. Like you said Sifu it is all symantics…

Be it 80 sets or 110 sets.. There were forms added to mantis to round it out from the jing wu Association.. ( ie gung lie kuen)

If you all see the Lawclansman web site they have 110 hand sets??? is that wrong NO.. It just represents the way Sigung taught Sifu Albright… Those are just hand sets… There are more weapon sets and two man forms…So Chuen luen was a CCM student that studied before Lee kam wing came in the picture ( If I am wrong please correct me )… CCM was his uncle wasnt he…The information he gave to his students is sound and time tested.. a majority of the mantis practioners out there on the east coast saught him out and learned from him…!! was his teachings off??? A major amount of Mnatis Practioners on the east coast are of the Chuen luen lineage if I am not mistaken but then again I could be wrong…

Forms are the essence of training your technical skills… just like shadow boxing a forms is just a set of technical skills performed in a patterend matter… So amount doesnt really acount for anything..

If amount matters then look to pre date jing wu or better yet all should find a way to looking back towards wong long creation of his first sets or even better looking back even further towards wong longs first systems of study before creating mantis…

Like you always told me sifu all that matters is you knowing your craft and being able to apply it to any given situation…plus if it gets to the point of that you are playing the set wrong I dont like that either I like performing my mantis sets explosively ( like sifu Ortiz taught me )soon it will go from we dont have that form to ohh you use to much strength or you are to fast… Hey to each there own…

But like I always say “what do I know” I am still peeling back the layers to the mantis systems I am still trying to unravel Bung bo…LOL

I am not trying to bash or upset anyone but this disscussion can go on for ever… No one will ever agree on the amount the 7* mantis system sets should be… and to tell you the truth I wish it wouldnt be.. If it was mantis would never be enhanced or bettered plus I find forms are a good teaching technique and the variety is very nice added treat… but that is just my opinion…

But all in all set or added set are to be there to enhance and or leave a mark on the system or a practioners attempt to pay tribute to there art…!!!

Victor

8

Sifu Raul,

While your question as to why have so many forms is a logical one, to follow it with the fact that you are willing to learn 82 is illogical. Is 82 really that different than 110? By the way, Jimmy Choy (Choy Wing Sing) is still teaching and he is a student of Chiu Chi Man.

If Sifu Chiu Leun was in Mantis 22 years before LKW started (he was) Than this could easily account for the lesser number. Perhaps there are other considerations. But it really dosen’t matter. When a student comes into my school, I would NEVER even think they would learn more than 30 or so hand forms in some number of years. Even I don’t know 110 forms and I have been in THIS clan for 30 years AND ten years with other seven star teachers before that.

Truth be known, I actually violated a confidance by making it public the amount of forms. No one is suppose to know. I really got it for letting that cat out of the bag. It was suppose to be clan knowledge. I wasn’t trying to impress anyone, I just don’t believe in secrets.

If you are a LKW student that is great. I hope you are planning more than one trip a year to train with him. He is a nice man and an excellent Sifu and I am sure he will become even more famous with the production of his new video tapes. Good luck to you and him.

Sifu Carl

9

Mantis 7:

Yes, Lo Kwang Yu added forms to his 7 Star Mantis, after coming to the Jing Wu. The forms that he added completed the 82 sets that we have now. Besides in the Jing Wu, you had to learn 10 primary forms of the styles represented and then master the art that you wanted. Lo Kwang Yu was invited to teach 7 Star.

I never said, that learning extra forms was bad.
But, what Lo Kwang Yu did was accepted by all the other masters of 7 Star Mantis of that time.

How you teach what you learn has nothing to do with what you are supposed to know and pass on.
What I am trying to say here is simple. Lo Kwang Yu taught 82 forms to CCM and CCM taught 82 forms to Chiu Leun.

In the four books that he received from CCM there are only 82 forms (hands & weapons). What is so hard for you to understand. I am not saying that the other forms that he teaches are wrong.

The other forms that he teaches after the 82 are just not part of the 7 Star Mantis form sets, that’s all. Master Chiu Leun is highly respected and held in the highest regards, especially by me.

I’ll give you an i.e., when you go to college to get a degree, you apply for the major of your choice. You see what the requirements are, in order to complete the course and get your BA/BS degree. If you want the masters or the phd, then there is some more material to cover, so you do.

The point that I am trying to make is this, the college education for the particular discipline has it’s end, and when you reach it you have gained everything there was on that subject. People have the misconception, that in order to master something, you have to continue learning new things.

No, you don’t need to learn new things, what you need to do is practice what you have and dissect it. This is the true way of mastering something, because then you have full understanding of what you are doing.

Look, I myself love learning new forms, but if they are not forms of the 7 Star Mantis style, I will not pass it as such, but give credit to the particular mantis style it comes from, that simple.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

10

Sifu Carl:

The complete system of 7 Star Mantis has only 82 forms in the records given to CCM and the same records given to Chiu Leun from CCM.

So, what matters here is this, you learn 82 forms from your Sifu, then you have completed the system that you are studying.

I’m not saying that you can’t learn more, because knowledge is infinite. But, the whole style only requires 82 and if after 82, you still can’t understand the mantis or be able to use it, do you really think, that 100 more forms are really going to make a difference? No, my friend and you know that.

You say that Chiu Leun study 22 years before LKW, and that maybe, because of that, there are the difference in the amount of forms. Sorry, to disagree with you on this, Sifu Carl. But, the 4 books that Chiu Leun and LKW received from CCM, have the same amount of forms, that were given to CCM by Lo Kwang Yu (82).

By all means, Chiu Leun has a great reputation as a great mantis master and teacher. What ever he wanted to add after the 82 sets in the 7 Star Mantis style is his choice. But, It should not be passed on as 7 Star, but rather give it credit to the mantis it belongs.

All mantis is good, but you know what, even Bung Bo, which is the form Wong Long is credited for creating, must be done the same way. No, matter what style of mantis, bung bo should look the same. Because thats the birth form to all the other mantis styles.

LKW Sifu just competed in Beijing last month, and competed in the hand forms with 10 other mantis masters from different styles. They all had to do Bung Bo. Lee Sifu won first place, he won not only for his speed, accuracy and technique executions, but also because he was the only one to do Bung Bo “Traditional”.

After the fact he spoke with a mantis master, from Mui Fa and asked him, why he change the way Bung Bo was supposed to be done and also share some history with him. The Mui Fa master agree with Lee Sifu and told him that he would go back and start teaching it the way is supposed to be done.

They came to an agreement, that even dough their styles were different, the birth form of mantis should be done the same way by all mantis styles.

Sifu Carl, we plan a huge trip to HK next year, if you or any of your students are interested, please let me know.

By the way, thanks for those pictures you sent me. I will treasure them.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

11

No one knows I guess…

3, 18, 28, how many forms does it require to get a working knowledge of the art. I doubt even 80 are required; but I guess they are there & that is that for some branches. “So let it be written, So let it be done”-Y.Brenner, the 10 commandments
Good luck in your search for an answer!
-BTL

“Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?”

12

Questions…

Sifu Ortiz…all this stuff flying abround has me greatly confuse and I hope that you can clear some matters for me.

  1. You have stated that other 7 star sifus have added to the system and that is a no no. In the 80’s, thru Panther Videos, was selling and continue to sell requirements up to black sash in 7 star mantis on video. Now I have, over time bought some of these videos and saw the rest of them from friends who have bought them also. This is my quandry, other than the Bung Bo form, none of the forms on those video are 7 STAR MANTIS, The picture in the ad has you doing a TIGER strike and I also have been lead to believe that you have taught these very forms as part of the 7 STAR MANTIS curriculum at your school.
  2. A question I would ask of any sifu. You stated that you are certified to teach mantis. By whom? You are listed in the MANTIS CAVE as student of Bob Spoelstra, who studied under Chui Luen for a very short period of time. And currently your under Lee Kam Wing, who to my knowlegde has been to the states 4 times in the last 4-5 years.

Now understand Sifu, I am not trying to show anyone up or disrespect anyone, I have great respect for you and your fighting skills (have seen you knock more than a few guys silly) but with all the ‘he said-she said’ nonsense around here I just want to make a fair and intellegent choice on where to go to next.

I thank you in advance for your clarification.

YHS

Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

13

Sifu Raul,

You have every right to disagree with me based on the information you have been told. But there are things about the clan that you simply are not privy to yet. I am one of the most senior non- Chinese members of this Clan. I know more than 82 forms. So at the very least I have, by your own standard, completed the 7 star system some time ago.

That being said, I can assure you that it does NOT take 82 forms to learn the complete system of mantis. Many movements are repeated and many techniques are variations. I have access to not only the LGY material, but I also have LKW’s kuen po. I spent some 12 years in Asia mostly China and Hong Kong doing research. I have spent time with Chiu Chi Man and Wong Hon Fun.

In other words, If a student takes the sole word of his teacher, his teacher may be witholding informaton (common in Chinese Martial Arts) or his teacher may even be a phoney teaching bogus martial arts. I have seen it all. So even with my Sifu’s great reputation, I did my own independent study.

LGY changed many things in his teachings. So to say that his is the “original” Bung Bo or anything of the like is only speculation. I have seen changes made during my time by CCM and LKW and Chiu Leun. LKW has stated he changed the 12 principles because he felt the essence of mantis was not fully realized. I have many films of LKW from years ago and I see differences then and now. He is known to most of us as a great innovator. That is to say, his changes have merit and are not trivial.

These are things that are printed record and film.

Nevertheless, the issue of how many forms there are VS how many forms necessary continues to be in debate. I have already have this thread some time ago. And I say now what I said then, it makes no difference. When you have learned enough forms so that you are able to use your system when fighting, you have enough.

Sifu Carl

14

In my opinion you only need a few forms to get a good understanding of 7 star. You should know

Bong Bo
Essentials #1-3
Plum blossom hand
Plum Blossom fist
Falling Plum Blossom
Lan Jeet

The rest are extra training and also for teaching purposes. Students tend to think " more forms is better." If you only teach them 8 forms they may leave in search of “more forms.” I know a student who has learned 18 hand forms and they all look the same. (quality wise) If he worked on only a few forms and concentrated on getting those better, he would be better off today.

This brings up something intersting. CCM lineage has 82 or 110 like Ortiz said. Is there a way to find out if these forms are true 7 star? Every hand form in 7 star mantis has a 2 man version.

Sifu Ortiz- In the 82 or so hand forms , do they have a 2 man version for each of them?

Also How many of the 82 hand forms have repeat movements that were already in the 8 hand forms I listed above?

One thing that can be good about more forms is the different combination. One form may have a right hook, triple pick, shuffle back left reverse punch, and shuffle forward right punch in horsestance. Essential #1 has all of these movements as well but the order is VERy different from any of the other 7 star forms. It’s pretty interesting actually. To repeat, more forms can have different combinations which allow the practioner to have a greater understanding on how to deal with the opponent.

15

Sifu Ortiz,

Please know that I mean no disrespect toward you nor Sifu Lee kam Wing but I feel compelled to ask you this. You were present at the luncheon which was held last Sunday in chinatown. Sitting at the table directly across from you were Sifu Albright,
Sigung Chiu Luen to his right and next to Sigung, Sifu Lee kam Wing. Also present were Sifus Raymond Fogg, John Cheng, Raymond Nelson, Stephen Laurette, Derrick Wright and several others as well as some of their students, myself included.
My question is why didn’t you bring this subject up then? Why have you chosen to bring it up on a “PSEUDO” roundtable when you were sitting at the real rountable…where it really counted?

It is sad that at a time when all the top people in the 7* mantis family from Chiu Chi Man’s side are coming together working torwards unification topics like this one come around on a public forum and challenge the integrity of those that are working for the overall good of the family and the system.

Again, no disrespect intended towards you nor your Sifu but perhaps you could have gone about this a better more constructive way.

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT’S END ARE EVEN FEWER

[This message was edited by loki on 09-29-00 at 02:52 PM.]

16

Hello List:

First let me say, that I’m not saying that you need to know all 82 forms, to know mantis. What I said was that the complete 7 Star Mantis style only has 82 forms.

I could care less if the person next door had 110 forms, that is not the point. No one is questioning the ligalities of you are doing to many forms there for you’re not real 7 Star.

I’m sure that everyone here on this round table is intelligent enough to know exactly what I am trying to say.

Loki, you say that I should of brought this up at the Chinatown banquet, and I think you are right, but unfourtunately, it was not the appropriate time for it.

It would be more appropriate if only Sifu’s were present at the moment. But, the reason I put it on the round table is because there are a lot of us that are from the CCM lineage and would have been a lot easier.

Again this was not to confuse anyone.

Yee Ho Society:

The videos that I had on panther productions is on variation forms of the Northern Mantis system, and at no time do you here me pass them as 7 Star Mantis. The idea was, so that anyone who was seriously interested inlearning the mantis style, then and only then would I share and teach them the 7 Star Mantis.

Sifu Spoelstra had trained with Master Chiu Leun for awhile, prior to the school closing and him retiring. Then he continue his studies with Sifu Stanley Moy.

All Sifu’s are allowed to take what they have learned and re-arrange them in a manner to teach their students. It could be through drills, I’m sure every school has their own method of drilling their 7 Star mantis techniques.

Please list, understand that this is not to discredit anyone, simply to put some input on factual information.

If I have confused anyone please accept my apologies.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

p.s. Tanglang is my student, I was just answering on his page.

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7 Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

[This message was edited by Tang Lang on 09-29-00 at 06:07 PM.]

17

Cha Kuen,

There is no way to know what the "real" seven star mantis forms are. Many forms are borrowed from other styles. To say that Bung Bo is a "real" Seven Star form is only a way to look at it. If Wong Long created Bung Bo than Bung Bo is not seven star. It is mantis, period. Seven Star is not the original system. There are other systems that came out of the teachings of Wong Long. So who is to say who is closest to that? 

There is no evidence to support the idea that Sing Sil learned directly from Wong Long. And we trace the begining of our line with him.

Essentials sets are not Seven Star specific. They are in Muy Fa Tong Long and others.Interesting enough the forms you listed are not really Seven Star sets for the most part comming from Muy Fa Tong Long. Wong Hon Fun in his writings has divided the style he taught into Seven Star, Plum Flower, Shiny Board. 


Seven Star mantis did not begin with LGY. There are many students of Fan Yuk Tong that have passed down their own line and they have differences from the LGY line. What about Wong Wing San? He taught more people than Fan Yuk Tong.

 The fact remains that China Seven Star is different from Hong Kong Seven Star. LGY taught in China first. Do they have the original Seven Star. I'm sure they think they do. So that Sifu Raul wishes to report "factual" information is nice. But there are not enough facts to do this. Nor do I feel he has done enough research to comfirm his claims. Nor do I believe that LKW in the short time Sifu Raul has been with him is willing to bear his soul to him.

So where are we? The only information you can expound on is what you are taught. You mentioned the two man sets for every form. Well, they really are Ling sets. Not true two person sets. And is it necessary to have one for every form? It is really all so opinionated. What is everyone looking for? The best? The most original? The most forms? The least forms? Don’t look for an answer, look for a home. One that you can be happy with.

Some information about Seven Star as taught in Yan Tai presently will be comming out soon. I’m sure it will be another source of valuable information as well as the beginning of more controversy.

Like I always say, you can say just about anything, and you will be in agreement with some recognized authority that believes he or she knows what they are talking about.

Sifu Raul,

          I think you were quite correct not to debate on Sunday. However, I would have rather you had emailed me first to get my position on the subject.
   Sifu Carl

[This message was edited by LawClansman on 09-29-00 at 08:16 PM.]

18

Please accept my apologigies if anything I say appears to you as if I am out of line, after all I am merely a student. My intentions are not to get into a debate with a Sifu, especially one from the same family whom I have had the pleasure of meeting personally. In saying that , I will address several of the statements you have made and then maybe you can see why there may be some “confusion” here.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> [/quote]Why so many forms ?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> [/quote]Why, is it then that some 7 star mantis families have added extra forms into the COMPLETE curriculum of the 7 star mantis system? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> [/quote]So, again to my question, why 110 or 180? Why so many forms?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> [/quote]I could care less if the person next door had 110 forms.

I see a contradiction here. My question, so why ask? Why even bring it up?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> [/quote]Lo Kwang Yu taught 82 forms to CCM and CCM taught 82 forms to CL.

How can you make a statement like that? How do you know what CCM taught CL? Not even LKW could know this. Remember CL is over 20 yrs LKW’s senior.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> [/quote]These words come from the ONLY ACTIVE Sifu under Chiu Chi Man SiGung.

Sifu Albright already disputed that by stating that Choy Wing Sing is still teaching and is a student of CCM. So at least one of your “facts” is definetly wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> [/quote]Finally, we have here in the United States the opportunity to train with a TRUE MASTER of the 7 star mantis style and he is willing to share it with everyone who is willing to learn the PROPER way of doing 7 star mantis.

So how is this going to happen since LKW only visits once a year? And are you saying then that up until now everyone’s mantis is not proper?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> [/quote]Chiu Luen has a great reputation as a great master and teacher . Whatever he wanted to add after the 82 sets in the 7 star mantis style is his choice. But, it should not be passed on as 7 star.

Even if he created / added forms why can’t it be considered 7 star? CL is one of the highest authorities if not the highest authority under CCM so he could do this.

You are basically saying that because LKY wrote down 82 forms that no future masters could add to the system? Are you saying that the 7 star cannon was closed at the writing of LKY’s Kuen Po?

You state there are six essential forms you need to know to master mantis. So why bother teaching 82?

You also state that if you can’t fight with 82 forms why bother learning 100. But we could also say if you can’t fight with 6 why bother learning 10? Or 20? Or 30? Or 40? or…82?

And finally, you may be right in saying that it was not appropriate to ask at the banquet but I think everyone present would have enjoyed participating in such a discussion with both masters present at the same time.

I apologize again if I sound disrespectful but although you may not agree I do feel that certain subtle yet obvious jabs have been aimed at Sigung Chiu Luen , the nephew of master CCM who obviusly was in a position to learn more from his uncle than anyone else with the exception of CCM’s own children and to question this man’s legitimacy is in my eyes more disrespectful than anything I have said here.

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT’S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

19

Thanks but…

Thank you Sifu Ortiz but one of my questions did go unanswered.
By whom are you certified to teach 7 STAR MANTIS and when were you.

My thanks in advance

YHS

Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

20

Loki

Well, obviously some people want to make this more then what it really is.

My question are legit and the reason for the questions is for research. If CL did create other forms or was taught other forms that were not taught, then it would be very interesting to know the reasons.

Do they teach something different, that as mantis practitioners we should be looking for?

There is no contradiction to me saying, that I could care less if my next door neighbor knew 110 forms.

I’m trying to find out some legit questions, to some very confusing questions and answers.

My goal is to master the mantis in every aspect possible, so if there is a reason, then I want to know, cause I would not want to be short changed of knowledge.

Actually Tsui Wing Sing is retired and I believe is his son Tommy Tsui teaching.

You are correct LKW only comes up to the US once a year, but he could come up more often. I never said that anyone else’s mantis wasn’t any good. But there is no other instructor under CCM actively teaching then LKW.

By having him here we can all participate and learn other things about our family and the history, etc.

I would never ever question the reputation of CL, he is not the one in question here. What any instructor wants to add to the system, is up to them. I can take and put together a hand or weapon set, from techniques learned from the sets. I may do this to work on a certain drills.

But, the only thing is that yea, my students will have it and their students, but it should be taught as concepts of 7* mantis. Yes, it’s still 7* in theory.

The 6 sets are important to learn the inner essence of mantis, but the 82 will teach you all the other posibilities of applying your techniques.

I apologize if my questions sounded like I was attacking my friends and mantis family members, I can assure you those were not my intentions.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy