Why So Many Forms?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

Sifu Ortiz,

No harm, no foul. I apologize for making it sound as if you had less than honorable intentions for putting up a thread like this. I realize these kinds of conversations can get heated sometimes and I aplpogize for contributing to that.

My Sifu always tells us to do our own research. To ask questions and to find out as much as we can from as many sources as possible. No one has the whole truth when it comes to topics like these and if we can at least put all the pieces together from the various sources available we can come that much closer to finding out what’s what. The main thing is that we all keep training hard so that we can properly represent those that have come before us. We should not bring shame to those masters who dedicated their lives to preserve and pass down their knowledge of the art we all love so much today.

In short…it’s all good!

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT’S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

22

Maybe all the sifus present at the china town dinner should set a summit and compare notes.. This will help bring the mantis families closer together and help find out what is so called traditional and what is classical…

Also all disagreements and important history and info can be put forth in a open and honest way.. You will be able to cut through the nonsense no one will lose face and nothing could be misconstrude..

How about Mantis Summit 2001 … A three day event of roundtables… Seminars…( for students and for closed door.. where sifus share unseen forms for diffrent families or forms from diffrent sect) and a big dinner… An Idea like this might bring the diffrent families together… Maybe it will open some eyes or at the least settle some questions…:smiley:

Victor

I HAVE MET TWO MEN IN MY LIFE THAT SHOWED ME THE TRUE MEANING IN LIFE..
ONE SAID HE WAS IMMORTAL BUT HE DIED!
ONE SAID HE WAS INVINCABLE BUT HE WAS DEFEATED
SO IN THE END I LEARNED WE ALL DIE SO THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS HOW WE LIVE
WE ARE BORN THEN WE EXPERIENCE THEN WE DIE…
ALL ROADS START AT ONE POINT AND END AT ONE POINT
SO IF WE RUSH ALONG THAT ROAD TO QUICKLY WE MAY JUST MISS THE OFF RAMP LOL

23

6 forms

Sifu Ortiz:

What might those 6 forms that are integral to the understanding the system be?

Thanks

Tak

24

Why So Many Forms???

Northern Sil-lum Temple Seven Star Praying Mantis Association

Good day to all:
My name is Nathan. I am Carl Albright’s classmate under Chiu Luen. As some of you know I have studied under Lee Kam Wing, Sifu Su, and others in Hong Kong. I have been to Hong Kong more than five times for at least 2 months each time. My classmates and I have quietly researching and studying system for twenty years, mostly leaving teaching to others. I am just one of the managers of the Northern Sil-lum Temple Seven Star Praying Mantis Association, like Carl Albright.

Why so many forms?

  1. The amount of forms directly relates to the many styles that make up the 7 star mantis system,
    ( please refer to mantis7 postings on the mantis poem and the 18 systems that it is compose of)

  2. Each form grouping like the black tiger or white ape forms have their own character.

===In some Black tiger forms one will finds it is required to turn and fight in four directions with particular movements in some forms. Also in black tiger forms one will find more fist strikes than palms.

===In plum blossom form hand forms, the 7 star stance is used with more, with short range backfist or palms than found in other forms. In the plum blossom kick forms one will find kicks combinations not OFTEN found in other forms. Because of these differences the energy and breath control is done differently in each form division.

  1. Some advanced forms have very little fist strikes and are mostly composed of palm srtike with first done with some sort aou lou hand movement to line up the mantis hand strike.

  2. They advances forms are for those who need to fight more advanced opponents of different styles, and more amount of them.

  3. Some advanced forms use internal energy or have more eagle claw or other styles mixed into the movements with mantis.

  4. Some advances forms relate to health and sickness, like the chi gung and nei gung forms

HISTORY NOTE: I talk to Chiu Luen last week. He has never said “THAT ALL OF HIS FORMS WERE LEARNED FROM CHIU CHI MAN”. Some one the public domian assumed that statement. He students have said he knows 110 forms. Now, Chiu Luen does know more than 80 whatever mantis forms. Many of the them are not from Chiu Chi Man sect of 7 Star Mantis. Chiu Luen learned Northern Mantis long before he was in Hong Kong, as learned more after studying with Chiu Chi Man. His alignment with Chiu Chi Man is a matter of family ties more than any thing else. Chiu Chi Man is not his uncle, that was a miss understanding of Chinese to English language, they are from the same family village. Chiu Chi Man helped our sifu when he first came to Hong Kong. Chiu Chi Man, Chui Luen and Lee Kam Wing are all good friends and martial arts brother. I know for a fact that they wish we American would get over ourselfs and just practice.

SOME of our advanced forms come from the following sources:

  1. 7 Star Mantis as it is practiced at particular Buddhist temple (not Sil-Lum) in the New Territories in Hong Kong, who are originally from a Northern part of China. Chiu Luen studied with these monks long before knowing Chiu Chi Man and after studying with him. These monk do exist and we have had contact with them. They are not martial monks, just Buddhist monks that happen to know Seven Star because they are from the north. From what I understand they practice for health and not for competition as some Sil-lum monks practice these days.

  2. Some forms are from another Mantis masters he studied with some ago.

  3. I have spent some time and energy researching these advanced forms. They are northern mantis forms, but you will find them more Sil-lum Seven Mantis (not the Hong Kong stuff), Great Ultimate Mantis, and some Taoism systems of martial arts.

I wish I could say more but I would need to get permission to do so.

Number of Forms:
When I was with Lee Kam Wing a few times back in the late 1980s and early 1990s. He said, there were only some 30 some hand forms, back then. I base this on what we told me, and his Germany students at the time. That was before, Chiu Chi Man and Chiu Luen taught his more forms later. This whole discussion of the reason for how many forms can be answer by practicing and research the forms one already has and asking one self, what is missing? Then answer this question by adding elements that will enable one to fight opponents from different styles and counter their particular methods. Please remember the system is composed of different styles in the first place.

As far as written sources of the system, no published book, out of Hong Kong gives all the forms. There are only three forms that were first created in mantis. Most forms of mantis are a blend of these forms and whatever a particular master knew at the time of their study or what ever they felt they needed to exist in their environment. Some felt mantis need more fight techniques, other felt it needed more medical and philosophical elements.

Move over, most closed door text on the system talk more about poems as related to “Journey to the West”, medical references, and chi gung.

NOTICE: Chiu Luen students and their students, please contact Carl or myself before getting involved in such discussions in the future. We may have things for you to do that would be a better use of your time.

To all others in the Seven Star Mantis community we of the Chiu Luen Sect enjoy good relationships with our martial arts family at large. We would like to just say the following we teach what we know and are willing to learn from others. We hold ethics and community citizenship above any martial skill. We also reframe from commenting on the value of another systems or sects, we only request is that others do the same.

In the past some have chosen to ask questions about our techniques and the history of the sect. We have always able be counter such questions with proof of who we are and what we do without taking offense. We only really counter such comments by others because we feel our students should not feel they have to. Please direct questions about our sect directly to us in future. Sometimes, good question are important in the learning process for both parties

Our mission, is not to create street fighters or movie stars, we leave that to others. We are here to preserve of sect’s knowledge and help create maintain a good martial arts community within our sect, but also be good citizens.

Nathan
Northern Sil-lum Temple Seven Star Praying Mantis Association
nathan@digitalavatar.org

25

Ahhh shucks Nathan, and I was trying so hard to hold back that one. I might add that we are planning a trip to China for more research.

What Sifu Nathan has said is true. At this time, there is only harmony with the Chiu Leun students. We get along great and respect each other as brothers should.

Sifu Carl

26

test

test

27

Disgusted…

Why is it that when you ask a simple and uncomplicated question, it is like pulling teeth when it comes to getting an answer?
Mr Ortiz, I again ask, (for the 3rd time) you stated that you are a certified to teach 7 Star Mantis,
1)When where you certified?
2)By whom?

Not trying to be a pain about it but I am researching these matters to ultimatly decided what school to join.

YHS

Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

28

more options…

There are other Tang Lang instructors in NY besides sifus Ortiz & Albright. Sifu Chuy is there as well.
There are links to all of their sites at http://www.authentickungfu.com
Good luck in your search & research.
-BTL

“Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?”

29

Thanks

Again thanks for the info, I will be attempting to speak with the other sifus in turn.
Justy I saw Mr Ortiz first and just going on convience.

YHS

Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

30

YHS:

Just because I didn’t answer your question on a timely manner, no reason to get mad. I try to get on KFO when ever I get a chance.

Sifu Bob Spoelstra
1989
Sifu Ken Keeler
1985

If I spend to much time online, then I can’t teach.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

31

Sifu Ortiz:

These names and dates that you have given for your instructors have me a bit confused. I was under the impression that you had studied with Sifu Chiu Luen himself. But you state that you were certified to teach Seven Star Praying Mantis by Bob Spoelstra and Kenneth Keeler.

I have been a student with Sifu Tony Chuy since 1985 and have seen many people come and go in our school. I remember Bob Spoelstra came to study with my sifu in the summer of 1986 when our school was at 1117 6th Avenue, 3rd floor. I remember introducing myself to him on his first day and showed him to the changing room. I also remember Kenneth Keeler came to study with my sifu sometime in late 1988 when our school was located at 58 W. 31st St, 4th floor. Sifu introduced him to me and I remember sifu was teaching him the form Daw Ghong and helping him with corrections in Bung Bo.

How could have Sifu Kenneth Keeler certify you in 1985 to teach Seven Star Praying Mantis? Could the dates you have given be mistaken?

YM

32

YM:

First let me say, please do not try to discredit me or my Sifu’s. I operate a successful and traditional school. I also produce some of the best mantis students around. My reputation speaks for itself.

I remember when both of my Sifu’s visited Sifu Chuy. Their main reason for the visit and the class was to check the differences in our forms to yours.

Sometimes is better not to introduce yourself as a Sifu, cause of the different attitude people take. This way they can see the truth behind the Sifu.

There is more to the story behind that visit, which you forgot to mention. I myself care not to talk about it and I don’t think is anybody’s business either. So, I suggest that if you would like to elaborate on this further, please do so via private e-mail.

Thank in advance

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

[This message was edited by Qi Xing Tong Long on 10-06-00 at 01:12 PM.]

33

Sifu Ortiz,

I did not mean to upset or discredit you or your school. I simply wanted to clarify the information that Yee Ho Society had requested. The dates you gave seemed odd to me because I remember clearly seeing them at our school and I thought I would ask for clarification. After all, isn’t that the premise of this thread? As you state, “this is not to discredit anyone, simply to put some input on factual information”. I did not mean to offend you or anyone else.

If you do not wish to talk about why Sifu Bob Spoelstra and Sifu Kenneth Keeler came to study at our school with my sifu, Tony Chuy in those years, I really don’t care and we can end it here.

By the way, congratulations to you on finding a genuine sifu.

YM

34

Kung Fu Certification

Although I think testing and review of student material is important in order to ensure there is a standard of practice and procedure among martial artists and styles, I think sometime we get caught up in it too much where it is used extremely for commercial purposes and to claim lineage for validation.

I know individuals that have learned from prominent sifu’s in praying mantis and in kung fu in general that were CERTIFIED instructors who couldn’t fight at all or didn’t have a good understanding of their own style.

I know people that went from sifu to sifu and didn’t get CERTIFIED and could hook you up real good in a fight with principles and theories that you were suppose to know.

Hell, I’ve trained under individuals in my travels due to military assignmnts that claimed to be instructors and it was all good until I sparred or fought with them and realized I was better than them and take there system and interpret and fight with it better than they did.(no conceit intended.)

Trying to consistently discredit Sifu’s on a public forum and question their lineage and the knowledge they hold from a student to a sifu, in my opinion is very disrepectful and it shows the true character and attitude of that student, by the way I would never teach such a student no matter how much they offered to pay.

It is something that rips at my gut.

In a previous school where I trained and taught as a assistant instructor we often had individuals to come in talk a lot of crap, doubt the system and the school and we solved in a most traditional fashion as we could.

We would invite them to class and offer them to participate and would make the class the most traditionally difficult class we could and watch as they hyperventilated from the work out and when they did recover, we offered them to spar friendly with one of the seniors and watch as they were kicked, punched and taken down through out the kwoon.

They had a different outlook about the instructor team and the system.

35

Why are you a collector of forms?

82 forms is ridiculous. You need to be able to perform Jin patterns correctly, and to rotate the hips and shift the weight to generate power. All this meaningless “flowering hands and embroidered legs” will get you unglamorously grounded and pounded against any real opponent. Lineage is good, but ultimately it is the quality of power generated, and NOT the quantity of forms that one knows, that will enable you to hit with power and authority and to throw your opponents to the ground by using joint center mass. If the Chinese MA community continues to banter over forms and meaningless arm waving, it will die out. Look around you, people are laughing. They are seeing events like the UFC in which bonehead wrestlers are pounding the once celebrated point sparrers. If you don’t care, then fine, but realize that the number of forms you know means nothing unless you are using them as combinations of Jin patterns. I learned 3 forms, Bong Bo, Sup Pa Sao, and Daw Gao. From these, my instructor isolated 8 exercises (biomechanical) that illustrated the different ways for generating power. Eventually, we all but stopped using the forms, and focused entirely on applying the biomechanics to hitting hard, sparring, and boxing. He explained the forms “collecting” trap and why it is unnecessary to memorize what is effectively a dance, when the most important movements are understood and all efficient movement is used. 82 forms… HAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA! I don’t know of ANYONE who would spend years of their life learning that many forms. Forms don’t make you any good at fighting on their own. There is no “automatic” value in forms. You have to make the connection, and there is more than enough essence in ONE form, i.e., Bong Bo, to learn more than ONE type of Jin, i.e., crossing Jin (rotational) and sinking Jin. As far as Raul Ortiz goes, I have seen him on a tape one time, and his movements showed a lack of understanding, like he was another TKD point sparring/form collector anyway. Doesn’t ANYONE train for reality here?
Since the Warring States, systematic martial science has undergone more than 2000 years of evolution. Its purpose however remains unchanged - to fulfill the need to effectively defend oneself and one’s country ½Ã ¤v ½Ã °ê. No matter how advanced the weapons of Man become, ultimately he still needs his most basic weapon - mind and body.

True styles of martial science:

  1. Follow clear lineage

  2. Are simple to learn but very difficult to master

  3. Have less than 10 basic techniques/concepts (Jin patterns/methods for generating power that apply to all actual “techniques”)

  4. Emphasize on the perfection of these basic techniques (not a meaningless entourage of 82+ “forms”)

  5. Emphasize on very low stances in training (but light stances in actual fighting)

  6. Emphasize on deep abdominal breathing

  7. Uses the entire body as a weapon - not just hands and feet

  8. Have almost no high kicking techniques.

  9. Looks soft on the outside but is hard within, or vice versa

  10. Possess of both linear and circular techniques

  11. Draws its power from the Earth itself

  12. Transforms attack and defense into ONE

Less than 10 basic techniques/concepts (concepts actually, from which all techniques are derived)!

Can someone here explain why you would want to learn 82+ forms anyway?

To me, 82+ forms is waaaaaaaaaaay too many to be of any practical value beyond the first three or four.

36

Btw

Regarding that last statement, anyone can defeat a pre-exhausted opponent easily. Igor Vovchanchin beat two of the best regarded grapplers in the Pride Grand Prix, yet was too exhausted to beat Coleman, who he is surely capable of beating. It is disgraceful that you would allow a challenger to spar only after you had exhausted him with previous calisthenics. If you truly wanted an honest fight, you would allow him to spar first, and then have the class. This is part of the reputation problem among so-called “traditionalist” schools that lack the traditional values of the Martial art mindset; FUNCTION OVER ALL ELSE. It must honestly work in an honest situation, like a mechanism, every time. Otherwise, it is just more mystical voodoo trickery. Not meant as a personal insult, but your sparring session doesn’t prove a thing except that your senior student could beat up a pre-exhausted opponent.

37

U Just Dont get it

Magnum,

Maybe you should go back and read my statement and then reply correctly, i mean READ it and then provide your response to my last statement. It wasn’t to make the poor guy tired before sparring with him to get the advantage through calistethics and warm ups and then spar with him. It was to teach proper etiquette and respect for others. Its easy to talk some one down over the internet as WORD and other individuls with screen names and unknown identities has done to Master Lee Kam Wing, Sifu Ortiz and other Sifus and students on this forum.

Prove your statements by visiting their schools and see what they have to offer first. It may or may not be your cup of tea but be careful not to respond hastily and negatively to how others do things. If what they do is working and is proved and tried in the fire then who am I or you or anyone else to question their way.

You spent a long time blabbling on about a lot of stuff earlier you could have reviewed to or three sets or two or three sparring matches with some one or practiced on your stances.

38

I see hmmmmm…

I apologize if I was hasty in judging your actions, but if you wanted to teach him a lesson, it would have been better done in an honest contest. That way the results are objective. Also, you should refrain from boasting. That makes him feel like more dirt for having questioned your integrity in the first place - and who knows, you might gain a pupil.
As far as practicing goes, I have all day to practice, and I usually do so in the mornings. Today I am getting over a sinus infection, and I am not working out this evening. I will resume on Monday, God willing. The things that I posted about in the other thread are true. No one cares how many forms a particular clan knows. What matters is how they can use their martial art in reality. Maybe I am the only one on here who cares about Chinese MA in the NHB world, but it just bothers me that the public holds such a misconception here. Lee Kam Wing has never been questioned by me. I saw Raul Ortiz with my own eyes and that is why I see him as a point sparrer who would get killed in NHB. I also had read his threatening and obscene response to “word” on that other post, and it seems that a lot of people are questioning his credentials. If he is lying, then he is just another **** like Ashida Kim the “ninja” LOL!
As far as hiding, I provided much more information on my profile than others did, along with my e-mail address (not that anyone on here would ever actually come “looking for me” LOL). Real Martial Science is hard to find these days, but point sparring form collectors are a dime a dozen. It is they who get their asses kicked by the fat guy at the bar, and give the real martial arts a bad name.
Again, if you do not care about the reality fighting community, then I guess you are where you want to be. But seriously, I would like to hear from at least one person who knows something of the real Chinese tradition, and who spars without points and includes some ground fighting as well.

39

Magnus,

Read my last post on the “wong Hon Fun kicks” thread.

 I live TOTALLY in the real world. And I give credit to my forms knowledge for my past success. I fought NHB and toughman contests waaay before ultimate fighting and the like. I got paid little or nothing (except some side bets). I even fought NHB weapons. That is the reason I got out of the point competion. Too much room for hit and run. In NHB, the guy on the ground loss and the guy standing over him won. I was finishing up my fighting career in 1985.

I am not disputing what you say about the value of jing training. Nor am I disputing really most of what you say. WE are in agreement. There is much fantasy in the martial art world. But be that as it may, the martial arts is an art form and subject to interpretation. So you cannot expect everyone to think like you. If you don’t want to spend time learning forms that is your choice. Fine.

But you don’t need ANY forms to fight, even the small number you quoted. I know a lot of street fighters that don’t know forms that are more than competent. The fact that you learned some forms shows that you at some level perceive the value of them. Now its just a question of where do you want to stop. 3 forms, 10 forms, 100 forms.

It's strictly an INDIVIDUAL choice. So don't knock forms collectors. You are one yourself but on a smaller scale. Who knows maybe one day you may even want to learn another form or two. When I was your age, I was in the service. I to felt that forms were a waste of time. I mean who has time to do forms in the middle of a war (Nam). But later I changed my perspective.

Hey, I don’t see the value in collecting toys or coins that for the most part will only be worth a few bucks more in 20 years. But people do it all the time. I do have one baseball card though
Sifu Car

[This message was edited by LawClansman on 10-08-00 at 05:02 PM.]

40

Very well said

But my point about the form collector is that 82 forms is ridiculous. If it is like collecting stamps and such, then fine, but there needs to be a distinction between Martial Science Fighters, and the point sparring form collectors. I just don’t like the image that the MMA community has of the Chinese MA. They think that it is all sport “wu shu”, and the Jin concepts are the real heart of Chinese Boxing, not some gay aerial kicks.

Thanks for the info, where did you fight NHB? It would be nice to have an example of a Chinese MA fighter who won before the modern SEG tape scam campaign started. Could you post some of your exploits? Also, a few forms are good to teach body mechanics and how to issue Jin; just as shadowboxing is good for the boxer. However, a boxer who just shadowboxes is not really a boxer. I guess I could sum it up as “All good boxers practice shadowboxing as a part of the whole of their training programs; however, not everyone who shadowboxes is a boxer, however good they may look while shadowboxing.”
What about that Joel Sutton guy? He was mentioned in one of the UFC’s but then you never get to see him on the tape LOL what actually happened that fight? On the SEG page he is listed as having won. How did he do?