Mantis in 2100

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

Here are some questions that I have been considering for some time now:

Where would you like to see mantis in the year 2100? What are you personally doing to preserve tanglangquan?

Since we know that the forms practiced today bear little resemblance to the original forms of mantis (if mantis was even practiced through forms at the beginning), should we preserve them faithfully as we now have them?

Since we know that forms have been in a constant state of change over the last few generations, should we continue to develop forms to meet the needs of today?

Should forms be completely dropped from training for more progressive training methods?

What parts of mantis must be retained for it to still be the tanglangquan that we hold dear today? Keyword theories, Eight hard, twelve soft? What can go? What must stay?

2

A very relevant topic not just for mantis but for all kung fu systems in my opinion.

I would like to see mantis be reduced in material back to its essence and have mantis become so practical and effective that it will be as popular as Tai Chi Chuan.

I am focusing on the forms and techniques of the core of the mantis system, Bung Bu, Ba Zhao, and Lan Jie Chuan. I also practice the basics stances, strikes and kicking as well as the four basic weapons, staff, broadsword, straight sword, and spear.
I work on this five days a week about an hour an half a day.

I practice about 15-18 So Fa. I do these in many different ways practicing them in lines back and forth, around corners, in circles, and from seated positions. I really think that versatility in all your techniques are essential.

On the question of the change of forms. It was said that Bak Sil Lum Masters were allowed by their teachers to add one technique to a form when they became a Sifu. I do not know if this is the correct procedure but one should have a good deal of knowledge before changes are made.

Forms I think are essential but a small amount of them, perhaps something like six. I practice the core forms Bung Bu, Ba Zhao, and Lan Jie Chuan. The other three I practice are The eight basic stances and Gunglihchuan and Lien Her Zhang.
Bada Mabu and Gunglihchuan reinforce the proper footwork and give great fighting techniques. Lien Her Zhang is great in teaching northern kicking and I just love doing it.
I think you should have fun in your training.
The rest of my forms I do one a week and I think they are superfluous.

I know I was never taught the keyword theories but the essential information of a system should definitely be taught and drilled so it becomes second nature. I also think that chin na and iron skills, and the hidden weapon of the system should be taught.

I think in conclusion that Chinese Martial arts are fantastic but they have become huge in scope and will be largely forgotten by the public if they are made to be so inaccessible.

The study of a martial art should be the work of a lifetime but if it takes a lifetime to learn practical self-defense it will become only a legend and not a legacy.

3

[QUOTE=gunglihchuan;1081558]
I would like to see mantis be reduced in material back to its essence and have mantis become so practical and effective that it will be as popular as Tai Chi Chuan…

I think in conclusion that Chinese Martial arts are fantastic but they have become huge in scope and will be largely forgotten by the public if they are made to be so inaccessible.

The study of a martial art should be the work of a lifetime but if it takes a lifetime to learn practical self-defense it will become only a legend and not a legacy.[/QUOTE]

Gunglihchuan,

Excellent post!

I agree with your reductionist theory. Unfortunately, I don’t see it happening soon. Some of the prominent players of the old guard have worked too hard to build political platforms that they believe elevate them above others.

IMHO, the following attitudes must be overcome for mantis to continue much longer:

  1. “Only our lineage is the true lineage”.
  2. “Other lineages may also be valid, but we only recognize members of our political family.”
  3. “Though there are many instructors putting out the core of mantis through mass media, if you didn’t learn the way I learned the material you do not really ‘own’ the material you have”
  4. “You don’t have the complete system because you don’t have this or that secret set, even though others are sharing the material and no longer see the same sets as secret.”

Mantis, like many CMA, at this point in time is too caught up in personality cults for practitioners to really work together.

I feel particularly blessed that my instructor wasn’t an ego maniac and sought to learn from and work with as many other mantis practitioners as possible. I am glad he was such a good example to us. I am also glad he was humble enough to not try and create his own little personality cult and gave us freedom to expand and grow by training with others of other factions/families.

So, back to the original questions and Gunglihchuan’s premise:

How do we reduce mantis down to its essentials without losing its essence? What can go? What must stay?

4

People can just ignore the politics, attitudes, and cults, and teach what they know.

Unfortunately, a lot of students will be unable to learn even when you try as hard as you can to give away the “secrets”.

Other students will want to complicate things, and talk and post all over the internet. That doesn’t help Mantis either.

I’ve noticed that when I post videos or comments relating to in depth knowledge I’ve gotten from my teacher, not many people seem interested.

I took one of my students to some open mat sparring sessions recently. He’s still a kid, and its been his first times sparring with people outside of our group. He faced off against adult black belts, some outweighing him by 100lbs.

He consistantly has been able to blitz attack them with his Mantis where they have not been able to respond. He’s still not very good, but he pretty much used the concepts shown in the videos I’ve posted.

Nobody here has been interested enough to follow up on any of the essence or essentials shown in the videos though.

5

-N-,
Please keep posting!
Some of us are observing, listening and taking the lessons to heart. I watch every video posted here and encourage my students and friends to do the same. Not everything is falling on deaf ears. :slight_smile:

Congratulations on your students success! I am not surprised that mantis methods taught properly and applied properly have won the day.

6

I just hope that by the time that I am old and dead, that there will be at least one student that can pass on what little I learned from my teacher.

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[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1081627]Gunglihchuan,

Excellent post!

I agree with your reductionist theory. Unfortunately, I don’t see it happening soon. Some of the prominent players of the old guard have worked too hard to build political platforms that they believe elevate them above others.

IMHO, the following attitudes must be overcome for mantis to continue much longer:

  1. “Only our lineage is the true lineage”.
  2. “Other lineages may also be valid, but we only recognize members of our political family.”
  3. “Though there are many instructors putting out the core of mantis through mass media, if you didn’t learn the way I learned the material you do not really ‘own’ the material you have”
  4. “You don’t have the complete system because you don’t have this or that secret set, even though others are sharing the material and no longer see the same sets as secret.”

Mantis, like many CMA, at this point in time is too caught up in personality cults for practitioners to really work together.

I feel particularly blessed that my instructor wasn’t an ego maniac and sought to learn from and work with as many other mantis practitioners as possible. I am glad he was such a good example to us. I am also glad he was humble enough to not try and create his own little personality cult and gave us freedom to expand and grow by training with others of other factions/families.

So, back to the original questions and Gunglihchuan’s premise:

How do we reduce mantis down to its essentials without losing its essence? What can go? What must stay?[/QUOTE]

MM,

Why come at it sideways? Name names, give examples. This should be good.

BT

8

With all due respect, who the hell are you to lay down a road map for reforming Tanglang? I’m trying my best not to be rude here out of respect for your seniority, but seriously…

9

[QUOTE=gunglihchuan;1081558]A very relevant topic not just for mantis but for all kung fu systems in my opinion.

I would like to see mantis be reduced in material back to its essence and have mantis become so practical and effective that it will be as popular as Tai Chi Chuan.[/quote]

Unfortunately, prolification of forms is inevitable. Such is the nature of “art”.

I am focusing on the forms and techniques of the core of the mantis system, Bung Bu, Ba Zhao, and Lan Jie Chuan. I also practice the basics stances, strikes and kicking as well as the four basic weapons, staff, broadsword, straight sword, and spear.
I work on this five days a week about an hour an half a day.

IMHO, Lan Jie and Bazhou in our style is very much “one form” together.

I practice about 15-18 So Fa. I do these in many different ways practicing them in lines back and forth, around corners, in circles, and from seated positions. I really think that versatility in all your techniques are essential

I would keep all 64 Shou Fa. But in general even 8 of them are good enough.

On the question of the change of forms. It was said that Bak Sil Lum Masters were allowed by their teachers to add one technique to a form when they became a Sifu. I do not know if this is the correct procedure but one should have a good deal of knowledge before changes are made.

Well, I think to each their own.

Forms I think are essential but a small amount of them, perhaps something like six. I practice the core forms Bung Bu, Ba Zhao, and Lan Jie Chuan. The other three I practice are The eight basic stances and Gunglihchuan and Lien Her Zhang.

These days my program for forms looks like this:

Xiao Fan Che
Qi Shou
Lan Jie
Bazhou

wooden dummy
Mo Yun Zhang

Pai An (Xiao Kai Men)

Bada Mabu and Gunglihchuan reinforce the proper footwork and give great fighting techniques. Lien Her Zhang is great in teaching northern kicking and I just love doing it.

Ba Da Ma Bu actually have a lot to offer as it has a lot of the Tanglang techniques (ie Gou Lou Cai Shou) embedded in it. Gongliquan is a system on its own.

I think you should have fun in your training.
The rest of my forms I do one a week and I think they are superfluous.

Agreed.

I know I was never taught the keyword theories but the essential information of a system should definitely be taught and drilled so it becomes second nature. I also think that chin na and iron skills, and the hidden weapon of the system should be taught.

Well, GM Chiu hardly mention anything about keyword theory but there is no one who would doubt his Tanglangquan not being Tanglangquan as far as I am aware. So never mind too much about that.

I think in conclusion that Chinese Martial arts are fantastic but they have become huge in scope and will be largely forgotten by the public if they are made to be so inaccessible.

The study of a martial art should be the work of a lifetime but if it takes a lifetime to learn practical self-defense it will become only a legend and not a legacy.

IMHO Courage yields strength, strength gives substance to techniques. Techniques amplifies strength and strength in turn reinforces courage. Kung Fu isn’t just about self preservation(so stop looking for mortal combat), it is also about self perfection(so start developing content of character).

Just some thoughts to share with you.

Warm regards

Robert

10

My thought is that if you are teaching something - let’s say 7* Mantis, then it’s your obligation to teach it in it’s entirety as it currently exists. It’s OK to have your own interpretations… but, if it’s 7* Mantis that you’re teaching, then teach 7* Mantis. As it stands with this view, then lineage dilineates everything including the number of forms taught.

That being said - if you want change, make something new and let it stand on its own- but don’t throw poo at your grandpa. That show poor taste and a lack of humility.

11

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1081698]With all due respect, who the hell are you to lay down a road map for reforming Tanglang? I’m trying my best not to be rude here out of respect for your seniority, but seriously…[/QUOTE]

Who am I? Just a guy who likes to ask thought provoking questions that hopefully inspires peeps to think and share their thoughts so we can all learn and grow. :slight_smile:

I never said mantis NEEDED “a road map for reforming Tanglang”. However, change is inevitable. If the last 150 years of mantis has shown us anything, I would say it has shown us that.

The topic was not what I would do. I am just a minnow in a very large pond. So I have no road map for mantis. I only know what what I am going to do near my lilypad.

The topic was what everyone else who has a vested interest in the future of tanglangquan is planning on doing. Whether teacher or student, I think the subject is food for thought.

I do think it will be interesting to see what mantis is like in 25 years (if I am still alive), let alone 85 - 90 years from now.

Robert,
Excellent feedback! I always enjoy and learn from your posts.

MightyB,
Good points! I guess I have just never been afraid to call grandpa a drunk if I saw grandpa passed out on the couch. LOL!

Few have been afraid to express their opinions about me. :smiley: And I actually appreciate such analysis. We grow more from the criticisms of our enemies than the a s s kissing of our friends.

BT,
No, I’m not into “naming names”. I have no specific names to name. Yet, I don’t think there is a mantis instructor in the US who is not aware of or has not had to work around the politics here in the US. I don’t have an ax to grind against anyone specifically. I am open to sitting down and talking to anyone interested in exchanging ideas.

I don’t think any one PERSON or ORGANIZATION is the problem. I think the problems have more to do with MINDSET. So, my comments were not an attack on anyone. Sorry if that is not “interesting”.

I actually can’t think of one mantis player on this forum for whom I don’t have respect.

12

[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1081627]
I agree with your reductionist theory. Unfortunately, I don’t see it happening soon. Some of the prominent players of the old guard have worked too hard to build political platforms that they believe elevate them above others.

IMHO, the following attitudes must be overcome for mantis to continue much longer:

  1. “Only our lineage is the true lineage”.
  2. “Other lineages may also be valid, but we only recognize members of our political family.”
  3. “Though there are many instructors putting out the core of mantis through mass media, if you didn’t learn the way I learned the material you do not really ‘own’ the material you have”
  4. “You don’t have the complete system because you don’t have this or that secret set, even though others are sharing the material and no longer see the same sets as secret.”

Mantis, like many CMA, at this point in time is too caught up in personality cults for practitioners to really work together.

I feel particularly blessed that my instructor wasn’t an ego maniac and sought to learn from and work with as many other mantis practitioners as possible. I am glad he was such a good example to us. I am also glad he was humble enough to not try and create his own little personality cult and gave us freedom to expand and grow by training with others of other factions/families.
[/QUOTE]

MM,

You’re so god da.mned polite it makes it very hard to argue with you.

O.K, here’s why I wrote what I wrote. I believe (and Im no Charlie Sheen) that a fair chunk of the above post was directly addressing myself and also people such as Vance and Alex Tse (I am into naming names) who have pulled you up on at least a couple of the above listed items. I recently talked at length with you about the topic of learning mantis boxing from mass media and passing it on and I talked specifically about ‘owning’ material. Although I have no real right to drag Mr Tse and Mr Young into this, they also discussed with you the topic of publicly sharing material that is considered the treasured property of certain families and to which you have no true connection, which you at the time justified on the grounds that it is already in the public domain and no longer regarded as secret. That’s all good and a valid viewpoint to which you are entitled, but in response to each of our criticisms at the time you replied in a well mannered and reasonable tone, even agreeing with some of the points raised. There was no animosity and everyone went on their merry way. So your recent post pointing out the ills of today’s TLQ which highlighted such points came across to me as a sideswipe. I believe it may also imply that I am one of these egomaniacs and personality cult a.ssholes that you subsequently go on to describe in contrast to your own good teacher.

I don’t care if you are implying that, in fact that would be pretty amusing, but I prefer direct communication instead of innuendo. Of course I may be deluding myself that any of this was about me, but you gotta admit you had me in mind at least at point 3. If you want to debate these things, let’s have at it. Just be direct about it. I have very strong opinions about Tanglang and its past, present and future and I happen to care about what’s recorded for posterity about it in the mass media, particularly the un-regulated internet where any person can build themselves up as an authority. My personal opinion if you must know is that people can reform whatever they want in their own personal practice but hands off the greater Tanglang. Any time anyone (particularly any governing body) attempts to regulate or modify these things they turn to sh.it. Refer modern wushu. Also, before one has grounds to reduce or streamline the system they should first have a handle on the whole thing. Again, in your own training, by all means go ahead. Passing it on as Tanglang? I don’t think so.

And in case you’re wondering, there is no connection between myself and Alex or Vance, beyond all being Tanglangmen. There is no evil political alliance or council of elders controlling the scene like a Mantis illuminati and there is definitely no need for a Wang Lang Skywalker to lead the rebel forces to victory and save us from the slavery of lineage. Many people in the Tanglangmen work together: across families; across cultural, regional and national barriers; both in a formal and informal manner and much is being shared. Many people are also not into sharing and would rather do their own thing and that’s cool too because that’s also how individuality is preserved. Tanglang is developing, not festering and decaying as your post seems to imply. If you’re missing out on this then maybe look to yourself instead to find out what’s up. To me it just seems like a bunch of sour grapes.

If I’ve misunderstood the intent of your post I apologise, but I’m fairly sure I’m not that slow.

BT

13

in 2100 mantis practionioners will fight in outer space as half human half mantis genetic engineered chiense communist super commandos
and taiwan will surrender

14

B. Tunks:
I have known Richard (Mooyingmantis) for a long time. I doubt very seriously that his remarks were aimed at you. In general everyone knows that there is political upheaval in the Praying Mantis community. This is the kinda stuff needs to be removed, so we can move forward into 2100.

15 years ago I told my Sifu (John Ervin, a student of Al Cheng), that I did not wish to continue my Mantis because of all the political cr.ap, name calling and baby games the Sifu above me were playing. Over the years I have learned Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar and a small Monkey system. I still have some of the Mantis forms like Bung Bo, but I don’t want to teach it because of stupid stuff some people are doing even to this day.

Richard:
My opinion is that; Principle and Theory are the key to any system. Forms are just tools to convey the principles and theories. Sao Fa or Hand methods can relate the principles or theories just as well. When trying to say which forms are to be chosen is a difficult task because everyone like to pull their favorite techniques from their favorite forms.

Example:
I like Bung Bo, Baag Yune Tow Toe, Chop Choi and Sup Ba Sao. I think it is possible to convey the entire set of principles and theories from these 4 sets. Now you may pick 4 completely different sets and that is ok. Everyone likes different sets for different reasons, so I think forms should be left up to the individual.

Just my 2 cents

ginosifu

15

Gino,
Thanks for the input! This is the type of thing I was looking for!

BT,

I believe (and I’m no Charlie Sheen) that a fair chunk of the above post was directly addressing myself and also people such as Vance and Alex Tse (I am into naming names) who have pulled you up on at least a couple of the above listed items.

Nope! I have respect for all three of you. The attitudes I mentioned I disagree with, though I have no personal ax to grind with ANY individual. As I stated in my last post. If you have any of these attitudes, then we disagree. Period! It doesn’t mean we are at war, or I think you are an ego-maniac.

I have been in personal contact with MANY CMA peeps over the years. Some were great, others were ego maniacs. I try not to judge others by posts they make on the Internet. I prefer to get to know peeps personally before I make a decision about their character.

Thank you for giving me the chance to make myself clearer! Sometimes I do go a bit overboard in what I say to spark discussion. I forget that hyperbole can be misunderstood. No feelings, nor bunnies were meant to be hurt in the above discussion.

As for Shihfu Tse, I think he has done a wonderful job sharing mantis with the world through his books, pictures on FaceBook and videos on YouTube. He is an excellent chronicler of decades of mantis history and technique. He will certainly be one of the men who will be instrumental in the development of mantis far into the future. So it would be great to hear his opinion on the questions from my first post.

I hope some day we can do like the Hung Gar people are trying to do and see that all mantis practitioners are brothers.

I have three younger brothers (though one is deceased). We may not always agree, but we can put aside our differences to work together when the need arises. I hope we can do the same in the mantis family. :slight_smile:

16

well- like I said

Making something new that’s based on the concepts is ok with me (I myself am fascinated by mantis’s intercepting hand) as long as you identify it as something new. But- remember where it comes from and show proper respect, there’s no need to talk bad or talk down about where something comes from (and remember- you are where you’re at because of -not in spite of- your previous training).

But- if you say you are “something”, or you’re teaching “something” - you have to live with the rules that are defined for that “something”. That means the good and what you perceive as bad. All that is included has to be a part in order for it to be that “something”.

17

[QUOTE=MightyB;1082082]Making something new that’s based on the concepts is ok with me (I myself am fascinated by mantis’s intercepting hand) as long as you identify it as something new. But- remember where it comes from and show proper respect, there’s no need to talk bad or talk down about where something comes from (and remember- you are where you’re at because of -not in spite of- your previous training).

But- if you say you are “something”, or you’re teaching “something” - you have to live with the rules that are defined for that “something”. That means the good and what you perceive as bad. All that is included has to be a part in order for it to be that “something”.[/QUOTE]

All good points!

But, what IS the “something” that makes it THE something? LOL!

To be more precise, HK Seven Star Lanjie looks almost nothing like Mainland Tai Chi Mantis Lanjie. Is one true and the other false? I don’t think so. They are different methods of displaying the same themes. Is the point the movements, or the themes?

Another example, Babu Tanglangquan lacks many of the forms found in Seven Star and Tai Chi PM. Does it make it any less tanglangquan?

Since the keyword theories used in Qixing, Mimen, Babu and Tai Chi Mei Hua PM are different, how are they all still mantis?

So, we must define what makes mantis MANTIS? What must be preserved for an art to still be considered tanglangquan? At what point(s) will an art no longer be able to identify itself as tanglangquan?

If I teach Beng Bu (WHF version) exactly as I learned it from my instructor, I think most would agree that I am teaching tanglangquan. Correct me if I am wrong.
If I skip teaching the form, but still teach the combinations in the form, am I still teaching tanglangquan?
If I skip teaching the form and the combinations found within the form, but still teach the twelve keyword theories found in Beng Bu through the use of other combinations, am I still teaching tanglangquan?
If someone creates a new form that is faithful to one or all of the sets of keyword theories, and the eight hard and twelve soft principles, is it still tanglangquan?

18

[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1082098]If I teach Beng Bu (WHF version) exactly as I learned it from my instructor, I think most would agree that I am teaching tanglangquan. Correct me if I am wrong.
If I skip teaching the form, but still teach the combinations in the form, am I still teaching tanglangquan?
If I skip teaching the form and the combinations found within the form, but still teach the twelve keyword theories found in Beng Bu through the use of other combinations, am I still teaching tanglangquan?
If someone creates a new form that is faithful to one or all of the sets of keyword theories, and the eight hard and twelve soft principles, is it still tanglangquan?[/QUOTE]

I am not a Mantis player per say but the above teaching methods, could this not apply to any system? During periods when warfare and fighting were prominent, did martial artist spend heavy amounts of time perfecting forms? I would think that they were probably doing fighting drills, situational drills and heavy on application of technique.

At the end of the 1800’s when firearms became prevelant and war was not the main steam, martial artists spent less and less time on combat and more time perfecting technique, staying in shape, performing and teaching. This is not saying that Chinese martial artists did not fight, I am sure they did during this period.

During the early 1900’s when the Jing Wu era was prevelant, this is where we start to see all of these forms burst out into the kung fu world. I think that a lot of people became form mongers / form collectors. The Jing Wu had created it’s own set of forms and other systems that were a part of this era started to create or modify forms to go along with the Jing Wu peeps. This is where we actually can verify the forms came from. I am not historian and there a lot forms that came from a long time ago… We just do not have enough info to verify when and where.

I myself was a forms collecter early on. As I grew in the martial arts I found that it is not neccessary to have 128 forms to be able to comprehand a system and it’s theory and principle.

If you have the theories and principles of your given system… it think that it is possible to have just a few forms to convey them to the student.

ginosifu

19

Machados teach Jiu Jitsu, but it’s not Gracie Jiu Jitsu. SBG teaches Jiu Jitsu but it’s not Machado JJ. All of those are based on Judo but they aren’t teaching Judo. Judo is based on a variety of forms of Ju Jitsu but it’s not Ju Jitsu. Ju Jitsu is definitely not Jiu Jitsu

7* isn’t Wah Lum. WHF 7* is different than PRC 7*. Tai Chi Mantis isn’t 8 Step. Pong Lai isn’t…

To pull concepts and your favorite forms while combining it with techniques from other styles and creating your own thing is all right and has been done for a long time. Time is the true test. Name it as something new and go for it. But, like I said, sell it on it’s merits without badmouthing where it came from.

When I sell television spots, I don’t trash talk radio or newsprint, I just push the merits of television.

20

Back to the topic

If I were to create something new that’s based on Mantis Concepts… what would I include or what would I like to see?

hmmm…

I would cut down on the emphasis on forms. I’m not against forms collecting per se, but I don’t think you should attribute rank solely on the sheer number of forms that a person has memorized. Maybe there should be a limited number of base level core forms, but I don’t know what those are.

to be continued after I give it some more thought…