Hi there
I’m a n00b in the world of Chinese martial arts - is Northern Praying Mantis an efficient ‘Martial’ art?
obviously it depends on what techer you have and how you practise it - what I’m asking is this a good style to use ‘in the real world’
If you have the right teacher and you work hard. Of course you must learn how to apply what you learn.
Cool, a question about Stupid Mantis. This is a very rare mantis style that’s found mostly in the western countries. It’s characterized by moves so obscure that nobody understands the yong fa.
Most of the demos you see of Stupid Mantis are either 2-man sets that only work if both parties know the choreography or applications against partners that stand there waiting to have the moves applied to them.
If you have any other Stupid Mantis questions just ask and I’ll do my best to answer them.
that stupid Mantis!
nothing between the ears LOL
I’m sure it all depends on the teacher (I’ve had one excellent instructor and one poor in the past and the difference was ridiculous)
I’m planning on moving to Beijing In Juary so I want to start training in a northern style i can continue in China
PM is the most effective “striking” art on this planet.
northern PM styles are very effective and unique. The style is supported by theories and principles that reflect the deep understanding of energy and the need to fight will sparing the least amount of energy possible and using your opponent’s energy against him/her.
The style is unique in a sense that the fighting applications were created first and then sequences were formed later. if you compare training mantis vs. any other art/style you will see that all other styles build your forms first to teach you the techniques whereas mantis teaches you the technique by making you practice the application on a human multiple times over and over and over through exercises like chi sau that start when you’re still a beginner. In mantis you are most likely to learn your forms later down the line after you have learned all the techniques, their applications, and their combinations. you will learn the forms after learning all techniques and right before u get ur black belt.
my 2 cents
Thanks for the serious responses
I’m going to take my first lesson tomorrow night
re: Belts - I didn’t think Chinese Martial arts used a belt system?
a lot of schools have adopted different ranking systems. but the idea is your belt does not mean anything, well kind of. the belts are just for you to feel the progress you are making. My school does have a belt system, but they tell you your belt’s only job is to hold your pants up!:eek:
belts are a cool way of keeping track, it’s the costs for grading belts etc i’m not keen on 
can’t wait ti try this stuff out tomorrow
[QUOTE=mantisG35;723002]The style is unique in a sense that the fighting applications were created first and then sequences were formed later. if you compare training mantis vs. any other art/style you will see that all other styles build your forms first to teach you the techniques whereas mantis teaches you the technique by making you practice the application on a human multiple times over and over and over through exercises like chi sau that start when you’re still a beginner. In mantis you are most likely to learn your forms later down the line after you have learned all the techniques, their applications, and their combinations. you will learn the forms after learning all techniques and right before u get ur black belt.
my 2 cents[/QUOTE]
Can’t say that I agree with this comment. Almost all styles started with techniques first and forms were added later. I don’t see how you can make a claim like this.
All the schools I’ve attended, both Karate and Kung Fu, taught the moves first before teaching the forms. Also, I have yet to see a Mantis school that teaches ALL the techniques before beginning forms training.
The typical scenerio is this - learn the moves that comprise the form individually or in drills, then learn the form along side continual drilling. Once you have that down (not mastered) you learn the next series of techniques, drills and associated form.
I trained at a school that focuses a lot on forms and even there we learned and drilled the moves first because learning the form.
Another thing I think the majority of Mantis schools do not have a black belt rank or any other belt ranks. It is a trend that’s showing up in more CMA schools but I believe it’s rare in Mantis.
I can understand your zeal in promoting Mantis but please keep it realistic.
This is how we break down at the place I study. We learn each technique and drill that. Then learn drills. I think you start learning forms after 6-8 month-ish, but that’s with the simple forms…I would name some but I was never able to catch the names in some of the more advanced classes…either I would show up early/later. We have sashes to rank progress.
Have a happy day.
[QUOTE=Yao Sing;723060]Can’t say that I agree with this comment. Almost all styles started with techniques first and forms were added later. I don’t see how you can make a claim like this.
All the schools I’ve attended, both Karate and Kung Fu, taught the moves first before teaching the forms. Also, I have yet to see a Mantis school that teaches ALL the techniques before beginning forms training.
The typical scenerio is this - learn the moves that comprise the form individually or in drills, then learn the form along side continual drilling. Once you have that down (not mastered) you learn the next series of techniques, drills and associated form.
I trained at a school that focuses a lot on forms and even there we learned and drilled the moves first because learning the form.
Another thing I think the majority of Mantis schools do not have a black belt rank or any other belt ranks. It is a trend that’s showing up in more CMA schools but I believe it’s rare in Mantis.
I can understand your zeal in promoting Mantis but please keep it realistic.[/QUOTE]
well in karate you start learning kata (sequences) when ur in ur second belt if not the first. in mantis you only get to see the forms when youre right before black belt after already having learned the application of all techniques.
in other arts you get the techniques from the form or kata. in mantis you get the kata by putting together the techniques. it’s a completely different learning process.
Praying Mantis Methodology …
The Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu as we know it in General today is IMHO a result of “Nan Fa Bei Hua” (Southern method Northern propagation). Practically most if not all Kung Fu (not equivalent of Wushu) derived from southern method systems (ie Fanziquan) developed along the Yangzi River regions (ie Zhejiang, Jiangzu, etc) since Song dynasty (960-1279 CE).
Believe it or not, Karate, particularly Goju Ryu used this Southern Method blue print.
The Southern method has some distinct features.
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it is largely hand to hand combat in nature.
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it is highly adaptable to infantry and militia training.
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spirituality is emphasized which uses form as an importanting training interface.
Bottom line - discipline is everything.
Northern Praying Mantis, Greater Meihwa Line in particular, has a connection with the south. It is not far fatch to see the southern method northern propagation in Mantis IMHO.
Mantis108
[QUOTE=mantisG35;723093]well in karate you start learning kata (sequences) when ur in ur second belt if not the first. in mantis you only get to see the forms when youre right before black belt after already having learned the application of all techniques.
in other arts you get the techniques from the form or kata. in mantis you get the kata by putting together the techniques. it’s a completely different learning process.[/QUOTE]
Again I have to disagree. That may be the case for your particular school but it is not consistant across the general Mantis population. You really can’t use your school as an example of what everyone else does.
In Karate you learn to punch, block and kick well before you learn any kata.
Look at the curriculum of any Mantis school and you will see forms at every level starting from the very beginning. Like I said, your school might be different but the rest of the Mantis community doesn’t wait until black belt/sash lever before teaching any forms.
Do some research before passing yourself off as an expert.
[QUOTE=mantisG35;723093]well in karate you start learning kata (sequences) when ur in ur second belt if not the first. in mantis you only get to see the forms when youre right before black belt after already having learned the application of all techniques.
in other arts you get the techniques from the form or kata. in mantis you get the kata by putting together the techniques. it’s a completely different learning process.[/QUOTE]
Again I have to disagree. That may be the case for your particular school but it is not consistant across the general Mantis population. You really can’t use your school as an example of what everyone else does.
In Karate you learn to punch, block and kick well before you learn any kata.
Look at the curriculum of any Mantis school and you will see forms at every level starting from the very beginning. Like I said, your school might be different but the rest of the Mantis community doesn’t wait until black belt/sash level before teaching any forms.
Do some research before passing yourself off as an expert.
[QUOTE=mantisG35;723093]well in karate you start learning kata (sequences) when ur in ur second belt if not the first. in mantis you only get to see the forms when youre right before black belt after already having learned the application of all techniques.
in other arts you get the techniques from the form or kata. in mantis you get the kata by putting together the techniques. it’s a completely different learning process.[/QUOTE]
Again I have to disagree. That may be the case for your particular school but it is not consistant across the general Mantis population. You really can’t use your school as an example of what everyone else does.
In Karate you learn to punch, block and kick well before you learn any kata. In Kenpo the forms are a compilation of the techniques. They are taught by calling out the techniques (technique bieng a sequence kicks/strikes/blocks like Crashing Eagle or Cutting the Pagoda).
Look at the curriculum of any Mantis school and you will see forms at every level starting from the very beginning. Like I said, your school might be different but the rest of the Mantis community doesn’t wait until black belt/sash level before teaching any forms.
One of the early forms you learn at most Mantis schools is Beng Bu. This form is taught well before black belt/sash level.
[QUOTE=mantisG35;723002]The style is unique in a sense that the fighting applications were created first and then sequences were formed later.[/QUOTE]
Agree with you 100% there. That’s why most people cross train PM. Sometime people even use PM as reference in order to fully understanding their original style. The forms designed in most of the CMA style are not heavy enough on combo. Only PM that always come with 3, 5, even 7 combos. PM is the system that bring you right into “combat” no matter you like it or not.
??? How do you see that as unique to Mantis? Pretty much EVERY style started out with techniques and appplications before any forms were ever put together. Forms are a fairly recent addition. You seem to be way off on your history and understanding of MA in general.
How many CMA styles have you studied that you make the claim that only Mantis has multi-strike combos? Can you name at least one style that originated with forms? How about naming one style that even teaches forms before individual techniques and application?
BTW, most cross-training seems to be more like Boxing, Muy Thai, Wrestling, BJJ. You know, the typical MMA approach. I haven’t heard of a whole lot of Mantis being added in to cross training.
You’re giving this new guy some seriously flawed information. I can understand a bias towards Mantis but what you guys are claiming is way out there.
What’s the move after
- Yang Taiji “brush knee twist step”?
- XingYi Pao Chuan?
- Baiji upper lifting groin striking?
- WC spear finger?
- Kung Li double chest punches?
- Karate downward block and back reverse punch?
- TKD spin back kick?
What if your opponent gets out of your way or deflects your attack and counter you back?
Not every style has combo like PM does. The PM combo design force people to think their opponent’s response and that give people more real combat feeling.
The PM “filling the leak” concept is not commonly emphasized by many CMA styles.
People say that Baiji is like grenada, LF is like riffle, and PM is like machine gun. I’m not saying PM is the most perfect system. As far as the combo is concern, PM is much more superior than any other styles on this planet.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;723191]What’s the move after
- Yang Taiji “brush knee twist step”?
- XingYi Pao Chuan?
- Baiji upper lifting groin striking?
- WC spear finger?
- Kung Li double chest punches?
- Karate downward block and back reverse punch?
- TKD spin back kick?
What if your opponent gets out of your way or deflects your attack and counter you back?
Not every style has combo like PM does. The PM combo design force people to think their opponent’s response and that give people more real combat feeling.
The PM “filling the leak” concept is not commonly emphasized by many CMA styles.[/QUOTE]
I totally agreed that Mantis teaches counter to counter (chess match attribute). Also stealing (tou), leaking (lou) and filling (bu) are important concepts in Tanglang.
Best regards
Mantis108