How many Forms do you teach per anno?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

I never said that we could learn 20 forms in one year. Who is going to teach us so many forms? In 5 years it would be 100 forms! Most of the sifus only have about 40 - 70 forms. So, in 2 to 3 years we would have learnt all the curriculum if thats the case!

What are we going to teach if we have only a few forms under our belts? Most of the students would run away. We would have to close shop if thats our living because the students would go for those with more forms and ofcourse those who are reputable.

If a sifu is to teach his students motion and application together then the class would be unable to graduate. All sorts of students will come to learn and each has different degree of comprehenson. If the sifu is going to correct all the students at the same time then the form would be stuck there until all the students fully understood it.

Normally, a sifu would teach a class of students the motion and the students wll have to discuss among themselves the application. They will ask the sifu the correct applicaton when in doubts. Its no point for the sifu to tell and make all of them understand because some students would be too dumb to understand or lazy to learn.

Most of the students would progress as usual. Those who are lazy would be left behind. It is like when you are in college, It doesnt mean that all will graduate. Some wlll and with flying colours and some failed.

22

I agree with Mantis Cool. It´s not the job of a teacher to make ALL students understand everything. thats impossible.
You give your students a hand, you make clear: here I am, if you want to know something about Mantis, you can ask me. If you don´t want … okay it´s up to you.
Good point Mantis Cool!

Shirker1: so, you want everyone to read your posts very carefully and with attention, please do this with the posts of others also!
You can´t read of any teaching 20 forms in a year! So why you did make that point?
People said they will teach at least 7-8 forms! Thats a great difference. And they teach this in the beginning years. Later most will slow down, cause now a lot of different work also should be done. Like apps, fighting, weapons and so on.

Well, monkeyfoot is not a representative. Sounds more like a troll.

And for the many forms: well said ursa! Thats exactly the point. Some have to preserve the style but not everyone. Most of the students will never learn only the half of the style. But for those who wants to know all they´re is a long way do go and to add the many forms.

In our linage it´s about over 80 forms including a lot of partnersets. And it´s obvious that noone will do them everyday, not only for one time …

23

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GBL sorry I miss read my mistake it was twenty something in 4 years. Still think it’s a lot.

24

Interesting topic, the number of forms that a student can learn depends on many factors.
Determination on the part of the student and how often they make it to class, goes a long way. This determines how much the Sifu will and can teach. Of course, just because someone does not make it to class as often does not mean they don’t practices as much or as hard. It does mean they have less exposure to their Sifu and will take longer to learn or are shown less new material. I am at about two to three forms a year I’m in my fifth year and have 16 complete forms plus the basics. I feel this is a good pace for me, even if, at this rate it will take me 20 years to finish our curriculum. As I am advancing I notice most of the new material is more complicated and the forms are longer. This should slow the pace a bit as well. Of the 16 forms plus basic exercises in five years, I UNDERSTAND eight chain punch, and cumnasow. Maybe a spin off question should be what ratio of forms to understanding should your student have after a given time. I have seen some students that learn much faster but not very many of them last…

RibHit
fm

25

Beng Bu in 15 seconds!

Ha d a m n! Your flyin` my man. Never put a stop watch to it yet though. BTW, does your BB only have one road? :smiley:

26

Originally posted by monkeyfoot
[B]… I am developping my speed quite well too but i still struggle to do bung bo in 15 seconds - more like 23 minimum but i dont think that matters yet.

i think everyone progresses how they want and if you’re willing to put in the training then you reap the rewards.

craig [/B]

Hello monkeyfoot,

First, I congratulate you on your diligence, hard work and study. It is obvious you take your Mantis training seriously and are ambitious to learn more. IMO this is a good thing.

I would like to suggest you reconsider the speed at which you perform Mantis forms.

Here is why – each of our forms contains numerous techniques and methods that require you to move in certain ways with an associated cadence. Each form is not intended to be played out at a constant or ever accelerating speed nor is it’s execution to be measured according to a persistant beat set to the second hand on a stop watch.

For example, in TangLang we mix soft and hard with suppleness and explosion. We deliberately accelerate, decelerate and even pause. This is part of the guile of the Mantis system and a significant aspect of our martial strategy.

If you set a time limit for the playing of Bung Bo (or any other of our forms) then you are engaging in a serial race to completion of the roads that, for the sake of expedience, encourages the oversight of specific meaningful messages buried in the irregular steps and techniques of the form.

If your Sifu’s instructions are to play Bung Bo in 15 seconds then I encourage you to accomplish this goal for the reasons your Sifu has laid out for you.

However, I also encourage you to slow down your Bung Bo and work over the steps slowly. Try to understand what each segment of the form is trying to tell you. Strive to unravel the methods and techniques of our forms. Work at practicing the steps by using them against a fellow student and you will come to understand the speed and balance required for the execution.

Best regards,
UM.

27

Originally posted by monkeyfoot
i am developping my speed quite well too but i still struggle to do bung bo in 15 seconds - more like 23 minimum but i dont think that matters yet.

I have a very limited knowledge of Praying Mantis. The one thing I know of that PM practicioners are know for is Speed. Blinding speed. Brendan Lai wrote in an Inside Kung-Fu magazine “Techniques can be matched against other techniques, but nothing can match speed.”.

If you can do your Bung-Bo in 15 seconds, great! I may time myself, just because it sounds like a good idea to me. I used to do my Bung-Bo (and other forms) as fast as I could also. I just made a conscious effort to make sure I put all of my strength into my strikes (punches and/or kicks), my hands should not be getting ahead of my steps, and my steps should not be getting ahead of my hands. Hands and feet should be coordinated. Before I started my form, I’d audibly say “The Speed of the Hands, the Speed of the Steps, and the eyes follow the Hands.”. For emphasis, sometimes I’d emphasize “Speed of the Hands”. Other times, “Speed of the Steps”. Gosh, I forgot how much FUN I used to have practicing my forms!

Anyway, person who can punch and kick and advance and retreat precisely, using all of the strength, speed, and effort they can muster, in Praying Mantis, in my experience, will have developed an important attribute for fighting. That is Speed. Moving quickly can only be developed by, well, moving quickly. I can’t think of any other way to develop speed.

Of course, as a fighter, you’ll also have to develop timing, Strength, balance, ruthlessness, and a bunch of other things, but “Speed of the Hands” and the “Speed of the Steps” for a Praying Mantis fighter (in my opinion) is in the top 2 list of attributes to have, in a list of 3.

Understanding the Praying Mantis techniques, however, can take a while for the mind to grasp. A person could learn a Praying Mantis form, do it fast, strong, etc., and not quite understand how to apply the techniques it contains against a “live” opponent. There are even those who KNOW the applications to different techniques, but can’t apply them! Knowing HOW a technique is supposed to be applied is different from actually being ABLE to apply a technique. Knowing HOW to apply Praying Mantis techiques can turn you into an instructor/teacher. But actually being able to APPLY the Praying Mantis techniques will turn you into a Fighter, if that is your thing…

Others on this forum may disagree, and I welcome the criticism and correction!

28

i havent read a lot of the posts here cause i post at work, but has anyone mentioned foundation?

I’m sure msot styles set students up for this. the first forms in a system provide you with a good foundation in it so you can learn the forms easier as time goes on. so even though the forms may be more advanced, you still know the basic techniques, and if you know how they work, more forms can be learned.

29

Originally posted by mantisben

[…]
Brendan Lai wrote in an Inside Kung-Fu magazine “Techniques can be matched against other techniques, but nothing can match speed.”
[…]
I used to do my Bung-Bo (and other forms) as fast as I could also.
[…]
Hands and feet should be coordinated. Before I started my form, I’d audibly say “The Speed of the Hands, the Speed of the Steps, and the eyes follow the Hands.”
[…]
Moving quickly can only be developed by, well, moving quickly. I can’t think of any other way to develop speed.
[…]
Sifu Lai’s comment meant more than just doing motions as fast as possible. Most people had a hard time due to extraneous motions and incorrect relative timing between motions. They would try very hard to strike faster by doing incorrect motions as fast as possible.

I found the best way to help people move quickly is by having them relax and move slowly so they can recognize the correct structure and timing. Then they can gradually speed up the motions without struggling.

Hand and foot coordination can be very involved. It helps to go through a gradual process…

  • 1 strike, 1 step - strike lands with the step.
  • 2 strikes, 2 steps - strikes land with steps.
  • 1 strike, 1 step - strike lands before the step.
  • 2 strikes, 1 step - last strike lands with the step.
  • 2 strikes, 1 step - last strike lands before the step.
  • 3 strikes, 1 step - last strike lands before the step.
  • 3 strikes, 1 step, 1 strike, 1 step - instantaneous transition between steps.

Then add in slides, jumps, din bo, and other types of footwork.

Some other things that can help…

  • identify where separate motions can overlap.
  • eliminate extraneous motions.
  • plyometrics.
  • stealing the opponent’s attack.
  • intent and daring to fully commit.

N.

30

-N- to elborate if I may on your first comment about speed… When you are trying to sped up for instance a strike you involuntarily tense the slow twitch red muscle fibers which then actually slow down the speed of the tecnique. It easy to tense to try to go faster this is a natural reaction. When trying to speed up notice you will clentch your teeth. It is high level training to stay completly relaxed during combat. Even with light contact sparring it is hard to measure true relaxation.

31

Originally posted by EarthDragon
[…]It easy to tense to try to go faster this is a natural reaction.[…]
Very true. Sometimes I tell people, “No need to fight yourself when you’re trying to fight your opponent!” :wink:

N.

32

Hmm, I’m just curious about the comments indicating they teach students at whatever pace the student can learn a form. I can’t say that I’m in agreement with that.

I’ve seen people that can memorize sequences quickly and commit them to memory. Does that mean the time element should be reduced? Some things only come with time so why deprive them of that experience? I could learn forms at least twice as fast as I was taught but does that mean I should?

I don’t want to hold back a gifted student but there are other lessons to learn along the way.

I’m left wondering how many dictate the pace for their students and how many start them on a new form when they say “ok, I’m done, what’s next”.

Is it the journey or the destination?

I believe if you focus on the destination you have a good chance of reaching it but if you focus on the journey you have a good chance of exceeding it.

33

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
[…]“ok, I’m done, what’s next”[…]
Some traditional teachers would answer that student, “That’s it, there’s nothing else I can teach you. You can go now.” :wink:

N.

34

Originally posted by -N-
[B]Sifu Lai’s comment meant more than just doing motions as fast as possible. Most people had a hard time due to extraneous motions and incorrect relative timing between motions. They would try very hard to strike faster by doing incorrect motions as fast as possible.

I found the best way to help people move quickly is by having them relax and move slowly so they can recognize the correct structure and timing. Then they can gradually speed up the motions without struggling.
…
N. [/B]

I’m sure that Sifu Lai’s meant more than just doing motions as fast as possible. I also understand that extraneous motions can inhibit execution speed of a technique in a form. I also understand that extraneous motions - as far as my own limited understanding of the term - need to be included sometimes because it makes it easier for a new student to learn the movement. At least, it made it easier for me when I was first learning how to move. However, I believe once a PM student has memorized the sequence of movements thoroughly, extraneous movements should be identified and removed (by the Sifu), and the student should practice the movement full power and full speed. Initially, it may feel like trying to throw punches while standing in a canoe (to quote Sifu Paul Eng), and just as “attractive”. But with practice, balance through movement and power through body mechanics is developed.

For example, let’s say a Sifu teaches a student the first 4 movements in Bung-Bo (up to the Lunge Punch). Once the student has the stances, steps, and hand-work memorized, I think they should start doing the techniques with speed and power. They shouldn’t have to wait until they’ve learned the whole form before they start incorporating speed and power into their movement. In this way, by the time they learn the whole form, they’re already used to moving full speed, and full power. Of course, I don’t mean there shouldn’t be any pauses in movement and such, because there are “natural” moments of “stillness” within most Praying Mantis forms (at least the ones I know).

I’m not a teacher, so I can only speak from personal experience. Maybe if I had teaching experience, I might see this issue differently. I’m totally open to the possibility.

I HAVE taught my Nephew some Praying Mantis forms, but that doesn’t make me a teacher. He is more of a Wing-Chun head now. Still, when I do see him, he enjoys going to the park with me, doing PM forms, analyzing techniques, and sparring. He likes sparring, alot…

35

Hua Lin,
I like your comment on teaching a quick learner.

36

Re: How many Forms do you teach per anno?

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
[B]
To make the whole thing comparable: let´s say a student who trains 2-3 times a week with no longer absent times than 1 week in a quarter.

Students also feel free to answer! Your perspectives might be much more worth than from a teacher! :smiley: [/B]

Well, I fit the bill of the student described above.

I’ve finished learning 1 hand form and have learned 1 new hand form so far in 2004.

To be fair, I’ve also taken on 3 new weapons this year, two from seminars, and I’ve tried to focus more on sparring than forms.

I make it to at least 2 classes a week, sometimes 3.

So the math works out like this, 11 months, 4 forms. about 1 form every 3 months.

If I were to compete in a tournament, I would expect to clean a form rather than learn one in a 3 month period.

37

Originally posted by mantisben
However, I believe once a PM student has memorized the sequence of movements thoroughly, extraneous movements should be identified and removed (by the Sifu), and the student should practice the movement full power and full speed.
Same thoughts here.

N.