I think my school might just be all about collecting forms.
A little background:
I’ve been at my current school for 3 years. I am a mid ranking student. There are only 4 students above my level and 3 others at my current level. I know 23 forms but I must admit, I don’t know all of them how I would like. In fact I don’t know most of them how I would like. I really like the school but sometimes I feel like my sifu is giving me and the other students at my level too much material. So much that we could never learn all about a form because we now have to move on to the next one. My friend calls it the inch deep mile wide approach. I would much rather prefer the inch wide mile deep approach.
Anyway, I’m not interesting in switching schools. There’s not a lot of options. I’m considering just telling my sifu that I want to slow down and really focus on what I have.
Don’t get me wrong about the school. We spar regularly but it’s difficult to apply what we learn in forms to sparring because there is so much material. I feel like I know nothing at the level at which I should.
Wow, this should be interesting. That’s exactly the situation I’m in, except I know seven forms and I’ve been there approximately six years. I can do the forms, and can even do a few rather well (I’ve won a few first place trophys for form performances).
The problem is I hardly know any of the applications. I’ve been told for the past few years that the applications will come after black (if I work at it, I can go for my three day black sash grading in the middle of no where early next summer), and that I should have enough “experience” to interpret the forms myself.
I also dislike the fact that the school does many different styles (hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fuy, san shou, preying mantis, tai chi, etc.) without specializing.
Thanks for letting me get that off my back and out in the open.
Well, its unfortunate that some of you are getting too much information, poor dears.
:rolleyes:
Here’s a hint, start using the old noodle and see what fits in the negative space. Some moves are obvious, some not. BUT, when you know what its for it becomes very simple after all.
Once you start seeing it doesn’t matter what form you do , you will understand on site.
I really hate these threads! Not that I dislike the posters , but I hate the idea of learning a form but not being taught application!
Fast flowing forms should go hand in hand with single fighting movements. In a form, a prearranged fight sequence, you dont have time to complete fighting movements. For example; seize, reel, joint lock, bone break, take down. Forms should be about learning to transition between fighting movements and opponents. As an example, if I am hitting A and B throughs a punch, how do I deal with that incoming force? So maybe in a form I have time to only block, hit and clear without going into takedowns or other avenues. Forms should be streamlined fighting movements from which we pull out single fighting movements and work every possible variation.
If you are not being taught application, your time is being wasted. Now, I understand that not every application should be handed to you on a silver platter, and even my teacher will show us the beginning applications and make us work out how to complete the movements. But, come on, no application till black sash?! In my school that could be anywhere from 4-6 years! Forget that.
Indestructible, We are taught application at my school. We are also encouraged to try to find our own applications within forms. If there was no application I probably would have left by now. My problem is the amount of material without being able to focus on any one thing.
SifuAbel, you have an interesting perspective. Maybe I should look at it from your point of view.
MK, yes, on testing day I have to do all of the forms. Right now, 4 of the forms are weapons forms. For my next level I will learn an open hand form, my second broadsword form and my second staff form. So next test I will do 26 forms with 6 of those being weapons forms.
I guess my complaint is, that’s a SH!T load of forms. How can I expect myself to learn and extract when I am always learning a new form.
Maybe I’m just at one of those natural points where I have to decide to either slow down or step up to the next level.
Not really sure I’m looking for an answer here but any input is welcome.
Thanks for the responses so far.
SifuAbel, I would like to hear more of what your thoughts are on this.
20 open-hand forms after 3 years is too much, IMO. I only have 16 hand sets after 7 years, and I don’t plan on ever really learning any more. Heck, I only serioulsly practice 10 of them and keep the others up just for teaching purposes.
Those 10 core sets have all the applications I’ll ever be able to reasonably maintain.
It is rare to see you talk about forms. It seems that your Sifu has the “understanding” that your real practice is taking place at home; especially, if this is a commercial school. You may need to develop a practice schedule for them on your own that would involve cycling the forms that you want to concentrate on. You may want show up at other times beside your class time to put in your practice.
I want to thank everyone for being apart of these forums. Most of the time I read things I know already but it keeps it fresh. The most important to me is people sharing their experience, both the good and the bad, because I’m going through or have gone through the same ups and downs. I suppose everyone needs to identify with others and I just wanted to thank you.
I do practice on my own. I have to. I could show up at the school to practice but it’s not exactly close to my house. I also have a wife and 2 kids that I need to spend time with.
Right now I’m trying to go to class twice a week and practice on my own at lunch twice a week.
In my longfist days, my school sounded just like hearwa’s. we learned at a decent rate, but never really learned the applications to the forms. our sigung would come in town for a seminar and show applications to a form, and the black sashes would be amazed, because they had never seen them. To this day, I know applications that they (the black sashes) don’t know because they became apparent to me when I started training judo and working with the shuai chiao guys.
“I think my school might just be all about collecting forms.”
Most schools are gulity of this. I know about ten forms after 7 years of training. Similar to master killer in age and training time.
“A little background:
I’ve been at my current school for 3 years. I am a mid ranking student. There are only 4 students above my level and 3 others at my current level. I know 23 forms but I must admit, I don’t know all of them how I would like. In fact I don’t know most of them how I would like. I really like the school but sometimes I feel like my sifu is giving me and the other students at my level too much material. So much that we could never learn all about a form because we now have to move on to the next one. My friend calls it the inch deep mile wide approach. I would much rather prefer the inch wide mile deep approach.”
I like the mile deep approach. Dig a mile deep in your basics. The forms start to make more sense. Tell your sifu you want to polish a certain form for a while.
“Don’t get me wrong about the school. We spar regularly but it’s difficult to apply what we learn in forms to sparring because there is so much material. I feel like I know nothing at the level at which I should.”
I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Your forms don’t transfer into the applications you are looking for. The best thing about forms is that it increases agility and builds endurance(especially if you do the whole thing like an animal). True there are some apps but they aren’t what most non-chinese think. We are looking for direct applications from the movement. There aren’t any direct apps many times. That is why they say you’ll figure them out. Kicking punching and moving faster is the application. In certain instances it will look like the form.
When I started at my wingchun school I sparred quickly do to my experiance. I did well even though my first three years of training was only forms and some limited pad work. I was faster, my kicks were faster. That was all I needed to out do my opponent. That was the application. Being able to do phsyically what ever my brain tells my body faster and more powerfully then my opponent. Body mind unity.
“Any thoughts?”
Stop worrying about apps and do the forms fast and hard. Not slow trying to remember the moves as you go.
Do you think your school is about collecting forms? Hmmm.
Anyway, I have had a similar experience as SevenStar, I learned 19 long forms in 3 years at SD, but I didn’t have the time to pull out all the applications. Some were obvious and I proactively set my mind to pulling out applications, but some moves remained a mystery until. . . . I started playing with other hands-on arts (specifically aikido and what they called Brazilian jujitsu although it was really just a set of ground grappling techniques not affiliated with the Graces). That opened up a new world of applications for me.
Not to say that I wouldn’t have pulled more out eventually. I think that the forms I learned 10 years ago are the ones that I do well, the more recent ones are works-in-progress.
Oh, SD’s long forms at the pre-black level are generally shorter in length than many of the forms you guys learn, too so 19 pre-black SD forms is probably the equivalent of 10 long fist forms.
I agree. There’s tons of stuff in forms. My Sifu has told me, “years from now, you’ll still be pulling new applications out of these forms”. I believe him, I see new stuff all the time.
I think we learn the forms properly at my school. We are shown and drill applications and some is left up to the students interpretation. I’m just starting to feel overwhelmed with the amount of forms. It’s a lot of information and work to maintain.
To an extent, but it also depends on the body type of an individual. My applications may be different than someone who is 6’5 and 250 lbs. Our bodies move differently, but we are emulating the same movement by learning the same form. The form’s applications, to a degree, takes on the strengths and weaknesses of the person learning the form.
