Functions of Hook

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

Re: seal and grab

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
[B]Feng or sealing as I have seen it is “sealing” the opponents arm to his body.

Or you could say pushing his arm to his body.

Diao, the hooking hand(actually means tricky) is pulling the opponent by the wrist.

Young Mantis,
Do I understand you to say that your definition is different? [/B]

Tainan Mantis,

I would not restrict my definition of Fung Sao to be only pushing the opponents arm to his own body. Although we do have many techniques that do that or even use one arm to trap the other with the opponent’s own body.

However, as mentioned by GBL, there are other applications of Fung Sao where I do not trap the opponents arm against his own body i.e. fung sao tong chui, seung fung sao.

YM

22

Re: Re: Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by MantisifuFW

Thank you for your presentation of alternatives. I also agree with your analysis of the Fung as a stronger gripping too. Even so, while it is true the the Fung does give a stronger grip, the release of this technique is slower than the Dieu. When used with Duan Ging, (short energy) the Dieu is equally effective to the Fung in assisting the attack.

Sifu Cottrell,

How much slower do you find the release of Fung Sao as compared to the release of Diew Sao?

YM

23

Re: Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by Young Mantis
[B]

I believe the performance of the diew sao in the solo form is merely cosmetic. It is an example of hidden or disguised techniques within the solo form.

YM [/B]

Are you implying that whenever a diew sao is used in a PM form, in application, it is really a fung sao?

24

Mantisben,

No, that is not what I am implying. There are definitely times when the diew sao is performed in the solo form and also used in application. However, in this particular movement in Bung Bo, using a fung sao seems more practical.

YM

25

Re: Re: Re: Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by Young Mantis
[B]

Sifu Cottrell,

How much slower do you find the release of Fung Sao as compared to the release of Diew Sao?
[/B]

YM, Sifu Cottrell,

It may be hard to differentiate the speed difference quantitatively, but you can get a qualitative sense of it.

You are familiar with Sifu Lai’s fast version of ou lou tsai or 1-2-3 punch. Try substituting fung for the initial diew and note the result on your technique. Not something I’d want to rely on in application :slight_smile:

I find the application of this fung as well as the release to be slower compared to the diew.

As far as the diew vs. fung in the upward elbow break sequence, I think that will depend on the relative sensitivity/skill between the two opponents, and if the person really wants to complete the break, or will choose to switch and crash in with horizontal elbow upon detecting opponent’s counter to the break.

N.

26

Originally posted by Young Mantis
[B]Mantisben,

There are definitely times when the diew sao is performed in the solo form and also used in application.

YM [/B]

Can you give an example of a technique where a diew sao is a diew sao, and not a fung sao? It would make it a bit more clear (in my mind) about the difference between a diew sao, and a fung sao.

27

Re: Re: Re: Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by Young Mantis
[B]

Sifu Cottrell,

How much slower do you find the release of Fung Sao as compared to the release of Diew Sao?

YM [/B]

YM,

The Dieu Sao enables an immediate rebounding energy, (not that it requires such however), where the engagement of the thumb in the Fung Sao, when it is used, requires releasing and disengaging the same before striking. Though the difference is measured in fractions of seconds it is, in my opinion, the reason why the Dieu was invented. It enables greater speed.

So though in real terms the Dieu Sao is not that much faster, in tactical terms it is significant and is why one would choose it over the Fung Sao when the situation required. Hence Hook Grapple Pluck is not Grab Grapple Pluck nor is Dieu Sao Splitting Strike, (Pek Choi), the same as Fung Sao Pek Choi. Both are effective but they are quite different with different energy.

As always YM, if you are not making insightful posts you are urging others to do so. I will try to rise to the occasion. :wink:

Steve Cottrell

28

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by -N-

…
Try substituting fung for the initial diew and note the result on your technique.
I find the application of this fung as well as the release to be slower compared to the diew.
…
N.

This is absolutely true. For me, at least, and the way I apply Ou-Lou-Tsai. It is significantly faster, in application.

29

Mantisben,

As mentioned earlier by several others, there is a difference in application between these two hands. In response to GBL’s comment, “a grab is a grab”, I would say not necessarily.

The diew sao is generally a “quicker” grab. The grip is different than a full grab. It should rely more on the last three fingers of the hand to suddenly jerk the opponent’s hand. That snapping action is an important aspect to the usage of diew sao which I find some people forget or don’t emphasize. It is not the same type of pull as when doing the fung sao. It is a short burst to suddenly pull the opponent off balance or just in a direction advantageous for my next attack. The diew sao as part of ngau, lau, choi is an example as pointed out by -N-. Also in doing Diew Sao, Pek Choi: the diew sao should suddenly jerk my opponent forward into my pek choi.

The fung sao grab is definitely stronger, the pull is more sustained and I use it when wanting more control or restraint on the opponents hand.

I suppose it will come down to the individual and your style of fighting. This I think is the main difference between the two grabs. One allows for faster combinations and not as concerned with really restraining the opponent like the other.

YM

30

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
[B]
So though in real terms the Dieu Sao is not that much faster, in tactical terms it is significant and is why one would choose it over the Fung Sao when the situation required. Hence Hook Grapple Pluck is not Grab Grapple Pluck nor is Dieu Sao Splitting Strike, (Pek Choi), the same as Fung Sao Pek Choi. Both are effective but they are quite different with different energy.

As always YM, if you are not making insightful posts you are urging others to do so. I will try to rise to the occasion. :wink:

Steve Cottrell [/B]

I agree completely. It is definitely a difference in tactical usage or fighting style and thus perhaps different for each practitioner.

YM

31

Diao & Feng

Wow, lots of things going on here!

First off, Feng (Mandarin) and Fung (Cantonese) are the same meaning “Seal”. This is rather out of this thread but I think it is a good ideal to make clear of this here.

I think there is a general consenses among the HK 7 Stars folks here that Feng equals a grabbing action. Correct me if I am.

Feng is not grabbing per se I am afraid. In the old day in China, if a house or a strongbox was restricted to access, people would put 2 bands usually yellow in color in an X shape and with the date on it and who did the sealing (ie government). This is sealing.

This concept is applied to PM as well. The basic dirll “Yi Bu San Chui” (one step 3 punches) is to teach and drill this concept of “Yi Shou Feng Liang Shou” (one hand sealing 2 hands). BTW, this is the 2 handed sealing. You will put the opponent’s arms in this cross shape allowing you to hit him with your free hand. In layman’s term this is trapping similar to that of Wing Chun. Because most of the time there is a grab for easier execution, the grab became, for most people, understood as feng. The grab is not feng. The grab is the grab whether it is diao or lo or whatever. It is the crossing of the opponent’s arm(s) that is the feng. Also sometime you would push the arms into the opponent’s body and sometime you would not. Sometime you would even pull the opponent towards you (dangerous but …) That depends on whether you are kicking his @$$ or not. It’s a matter of how much time you have on your hands (pun intended). :slight_smile:

The Feng that Tainan mentioned is a single hand feng. This happens most of the time when the opponent is not facing you square on. That’s means either his left side or right side is towards you. The push toward the centerline of the opponent that is applied not on or arround the wrist but on the forearm near the elbow, either by a grab or edge of palm, would seal off one side of the opponent and possibly allowing you to either unbalance or controling (his centerline) him.

One thing of note is that HK 7 stars in WHF lineage seems to like to work with the wrist while in LKW’s lineage (Lee seems to have worked with the mainland groups before) would work with not only the wrist but also the elbow areas when doing hook grab pluck. This is my own impression. I would think that longfist has a lot of influence in HK 7 stars (I could be dead wrong). Anyway, I hope this clears up the debate on feng being a grab.

Warm regards to all

Mantis108

32

Re: Diao & Feng

Originally posted by mantis108

One thing of note is that HK 7 stars in WHF lineage seems to like to work with the wrist while in LKW’s lineage (Lee seems to have worked with the mainland groups before) would work with not only the wrist but also the elbow areas when doing hook grab pluck.

I am not sure how the LKW lineage performs hook, grab, pluck but in the WHF lineage, the hook using a diew sao intercepts forearm to forearm and the grab initiates at the forearm and slides to the wrist in the jerk action. The grab (lou) is at the elbow for better control of the entire arm. The lou should not be at the wrist or even forearm. Then the pluck (punch or choi).

I understand your definition of Fung and know exactly what you are talking about. Funny how back then in China they used yellow paper and today police use yellow tape. Anyway, I would say though that yes, in general when we say Fung, it can mean just a full grab and not just the action used in “yut bo sahm choi” to trap the two hands.

YM

33

Re: Diao & Feng

Originally posted by mantis108

…
The grab is not feng. The grab is the grab whether it is diao or lo or whatever. It is the crossing of the opponent’s arm(s) that is the feng. Also sometime you would push the arms into the opponent’s body and sometime you would not. Sometime you would even pull the opponent towards you (dangerous but …)
…

What an EXCELLENT description of “Feng/Fung”.

The push toward the centerline of the opponent that is applied not on or arround the wrist but on the forearm near the elbow, either by a grab or edge of palm, would seal off one side of the opponent and possibly allowing you to either unbalance or controling (his centerline) him.
…

After this description of feng, it is clear to me that movement #22 in Bung Bo couldn’t be feng/sealing as you described it, because pushing your opponents arm “towards the centerline” “on the forearm near the elbow”, wouldn’t allow you to execute the upward elbow-strike to the opponents arm.

For years I thought this upward-elbow strike was impractical. But after years of my dedicated training and medita… Okay, okay, I saw it in an old issue of “Inside Kung-Fu”.:smiley:

I saw a “Penjak Silat” (It could’ve been Kali) illustration of a similar technique. Something about “Defanging” your opponents weapons. It involved striking your opponents arms/joints so that if his arms hurt enough, he won’t be able to hit you with them (or block with them).

Anyway, this guy worked what looked like movement #22 in Bung Bo off of his opponents right straight punch, to “defang” his opponents arm. I liked it.

So, the body mechanics of how I executed this upward-elbow strike in the form changed. When it was time to spar, I was able to execute the Diu with the upward-elbow strike on a couple of different opponents. However, I still need more sparring work on this technique before it goes in my “little Bag-A-Tricks”.

34

Re: Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by Young Mantis
[B]
…
However in his Ling Bung Bo book, he says after doing the pek choy, the right hand uses fung to catch the ling side’s wrist.
…

YM [/B]

Catching involves grabbing, but catching is much MORE than grabbing. If you “Catch a ball”, it usually means you grabbed the ball while it was in flight or airborne. If you “grab a ball”, it was probably just lying on the ground, motionless.

If after doing pek choy, your right hand uses fung to catch the ling sides’ wrist, then the ling side’s wrist MUST be coming at you to strike, so you can catch the wrist in motion like a ball, and execute the upward elbow-strike.

However, if after doing pek choy you simply use fung to “grab” the ling side’s wrist, then you did not catch the wrist. You simply grabbed the wrist, which is analogous to grabbing the ball lying motionless on the ground.

I’m sure WHF meant “Catch” (grab something in motion) and not “Grab” (grab something not in motion), because, in my experience, “Catching” my opponents wrist and executing the upward elbow-strike has yielded better results than “Grabbing” my opponents wrist and trying to pull it straight to hit it with the upward elbow-strike.

I may be wrong, but on the Ling side of Bung Bo, after the opponent blocks your Pek Choy, “ling” is probably supposed to strike you with the right hand, then you “Catch” ling’s wrist (ling’s wrist is now in motion) with fung and execute the upward elbow-strike. In this case, either a Fung or a Diu (Diu as used in movement #22 of Bung Bo) will work, effectively.

35

Re: Re: Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by mantisben
[B]
Catching involves grabbing, but catching is much MORE than grabbing. If you “Catch a ball”, it usually means you grabbed the ball while it was in flight or airborne. If you “grab a ball”, it was probably just lying on the ground, motionless.

If after doing pek choy, your right hand uses fung to catch the ling sides’ wrist, then the ling side’s wrist MUST be coming at you to strike, so you can catch the wrist in motion like a ball, and execute the upward elbow-strike.

However, if after doing pek choy you simply use fung to “grab” the ling side’s wrist, then you did not catch the wrist. You simply grabbed the wrist, which is analogous to grabbing the ball lying motionless on the ground.

I’m sure WHF meant “Catch” (grab something in motion) and not “Grab” (grab something not in motion), because, in my experience, “Catching” my opponents wrist and executing the upward elbow-strike has yielded better results than “Grabbing” my opponents wrist and trying to pull it straight to hit it with the upward elbow-strike.

I may be wrong, but on the Ling side of Bung Bo, after the opponent blocks your Pek Choy, “ling” is probably supposed to strike you with the right hand, then you “Catch” ling’s wrist (ling’s wrist is now in motion) with fung and execute the upward elbow-strike. In this case, either a Fung or a Diu (Diu as used in movement #22 of Bung Bo) will work, effectively. [/B]

Mantisben,

I paraphrased what WHF wrote in his book. He actually does not use the word catch or grab. In very few words he says, the fist becomes fung on the opponents wrist. There is no specific inference if it is a catch of something in motion or a grab of something not in motion nor did I mean to imply one or the other.

I do not know if you learned Ling Bung Bo or even if you did whether or not your version is the same as mine. But in my version, after I do the pek choi and opponent blocks, I immediately grab the blocking hand before he has a chance to return a strike. I have to do this right after he blocks and before he disengages so I am still in contact with his blocking arm. When I pull him and twist in my stance, I control his arm and upper body since the pull will rotate his lead side forward. So in a sense, I have controlled his centerline. Then I apply the elbow strike which does not have to be vertically straight up. It could be at an angle depending on where his elbow is pointing and how tall the opponent is relative to me.

I did not think grab and catch had such a major difference when I posted earlier. I guess I should think more carefully which words to use when writing.

YM

36

We can think of fung in the general sense of sealing or securing.

This concept can include:

  • grabbing as in fung tung chui
  • two handed grabbing as in serng fung sao tung chui
  • downward pressing as in combination with huen chui
  • trapping as already mentioned by Tainan Mantis and Mantis108

For us fung includes more than just grabbing, but we commonly use the term fung when talking about a full handed grab/pull.

As YM explained, in WHF we can initiate ou lou choi with forearm contact followed by wrist. Even within WHF there is variation.

If you study Sifu Lai’s ou lou choi, you find that the ou in this case is almost imperceptible with no element of jerking. He has kept only the sensitivity portion of the ou, and discarded any force aspect of the motion. Sifu Lai’s approach emphasized sensitivity, speed, and instantaneous change directed into the opponent’s mental and physical openings.

His english terms for ou-lou-choi concept were not hook-grapple-pluck, but intercept-control-strike. Even diou as a hook/jerk was too slow for him, so his diou was barely a touch which served to determine the opponent’s force or energy - no jerk or redirection. Additionally, lou was not a grab/grapple, but a downward strike at mid forearm followed by sensitive sticking.

Under Sifu Lai, at the advanced level, ou-lou-choi is expected to be executed as described above. In this version, under ideal conditions, there is no forearm contact on the initial intercept. The lou motion is applied to the opponent’s mid-forearm and can result in temporary paralysis of the lower arm. Also, the lou serves to momentarily redirect, sink, or pin the opponent’s force into the ground, as well as to borrow from his momentum in applying the strike.

So we see a few things here. Based on Sifu Lai’s preferences he chose to emphasize different aspects of each of the motions in ou lou choi. The ou/diou is completely empty of energy, the lou is no longer a grab, but an energetic strike that disappears into sensitive sticking/floating. With sensitivity and force so extremely separated between the first two motions, there is no energy for the opponent to detect until it is too late when the lou and choi occur practically simultaneously. The effect is like an explosion or lightning, in appearing and disappearing.

N.

37

catch/grab/fung

Mantisben, Young Mantis,

The difficulty in using the words catch and grab in relation to fung is an example of cultural differences affecting our understanding of kungfu.

Fung is a type of kungfu jargon, and has a particular meaning within the Praying Mantis world. In explaining the idea behind fung, a teacher can use a variety of words, whether they be english or chinese. In english, we may say grab or catch, let alone the literal translation of seal.

The chinese word Sifu Lai used to explain fung was “cheong”. There is no one english word that I can think of that corresponds to cheong. But basically it means “to snatch”. A more complete sense of the word may be something like, “to steal or tear away with aggressive and vicious intent where the victim is caught unawares and resists weakly to no avail”. So our fung is done in that context.

When Sifu said “cheong”, a big kungfu lightbulb went on over my head :slight_smile:

N.

p.s. With regard to viciousness… Sifu would say, “more vicious, more vicious!”. And after you got that part correct, he’d say, “yes, but think happy thoughts!” Which is probably why I smile sometimes when sparring :slight_smile:

38

Re: Re: Re: Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by Young Mantis
[B]

Mantisben,

I paraphrased what WHF wrote in his book. He actually does not use the word catch or grab. In very few words he says, the fist becomes fung on the opponents wrist. There is no specific inference if it is a catch of something in motion or a grab of something not in motion nor did I mean to imply one or the other.
…

YM [/B]

If WHF says “the fist becomes fung on the opponents wrist”, then the movement is a “grab” and not a “catch”, and my post went off in the wrong direction.

39

Originally posted by -N-
[B]…
If you study Sifu Lai’s ou lou choi, you find that the ou in this case is almost imperceptible with no element of jerking.
…
His english terms for ou-lou-choi concept were not hook-grapple-pluck, but intercept-control-strike. Even diou as a hook/jerk was too slow for him, so his diou was barely a touch which served to determine the opponent’s force or energy - no jerk or redirection.
…

N. [/B]

This sounds like “Hoy Sao” as explained by Sifu Steve Cotrell:

WHF noted three types of hook hand. One is what he called a “Hoy Sao” or a tap with the hook hand that did very little grabbing at all. It’s only purpose was to deflect or misplace an opponent’s hand.

40

-N-

I was taught exactly the way you were in regards to gou lou right down to the method of impact and the higher level aim, to cause damage upon contact.

I agree with tainan and 108’s description of feng as a specific method however I also agree with the common usage of the term feng, however it must imply redirecting or pulling/pushing the arm (usually across or down) to facilitate a strike/push/throw.
I think there is certainly a difference between the interpretations but they are all closely related. In my experience and using feng in its ‘sealing’ sense, the arm doesnt always have to be pushed into the body, as long as the arms are ‘sealed’.
b.t