Functions of Hook

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

First off, Sifu Cottrell contributed a nice post that I think it deserves it own thread. So I copy and paste it here and I add my thoughts to it.

<<<Ou or “Au” in Cantonese is different from Tiao Shou (or Dieu Sao in Cantonese).>>>

Tiao is a kind of lifting IMHO. Diao on the other hand is the motion in question here. I agreed that Dieu Sao is the Cantonese for it. Anyway, IMHO Diao is the “force continuum” of Gao/Ou/Au. It has a plucking energy that “pulls” to the sideway and downward at the same time.

<<<WHF noted three types of hook hand. One is what he called a “Hoy Sao” or a tap with the hook hand that did very little grabbing at all. It’s only purpose was to deflect or misplace an opponent’s hand. >>>

This description fits the old Chinese doorway analogy Paul Lin once posted. I also think that in the case that WHF suggested, all surfaces of the hook hand are used. (ie. the back, the sides, etc…)

<<<The second was a hook that grabbed for an instant then released. This one was called a Tiao or Dieu. This one would grab for an instant then strike or grab enough to restrain for an instant while the other hand struck. >>>

I believe Diao in Meihwa lines is expressed as grab pull to the outside lower corner. We have 2 exercises in CCK TCPM that work on the Diao. Actually, to say pulling is a bit misleading. It should be a folding of the arm rather. It makes a huge difference when there is a substantial weight gap between the exponent and the opponent. BTW, there is a somewhat straight armed pull version that make use of the Hanjibu (winter Chicken stance) as well.

<<<The third is the Au. The Au was a full restraining grab with the hook hand that facilitated either Tsai or Choi the sudden sharp jerking of an opponent’s arm or that could go into Chin Na, (Kum Na).>>>

Agreed.

<<<There are no doubt other distinctions that I do not know of but that’s my limited take on the subject. Hope it helps.

Steve Cottrell>>>

In Shrfu Shr Zheng Zhong’s (Tainan’s teacher) Lanjie book there is an entry of “Tanglang Shuang Dan Gao Ji Bu Shrliu Jiao” (16 ways of Double and single hooks) which are somewhat reminiscent of the moves in Zhai Yao Yi Lu (1st rd of essences). I agree that there seems to be more on the subject.

That’s my take for now. :slight_smile:

Mantis108

2

Oops

Mantis 108

Forgive me but I must have had a trainwreck mentally. First I messed up Lee Kam Wing’s address, (thanks Bailung for letting me know my mistake), secondly I meant Diao not Tiao for hte mantis hook. Guess I need more coffee!

Steve Cottrell

3

Hi Sifu Cottrell

Pinyin is one of the most confusing things. I can see LKW’s conventions in his books had made a deep impression on you. The tones and the dialects in Chinese sometimes are very hard to graspe even for the experienced.

While we are on the subject, Tiao and Diao need to be well defined as different motions IMHO because Tiao appears in Qingdao branch 7* 12 keyword; whereas, Diao appears in the HK counter part. This difference to me indicates significant shift in paradigm, if you will, in the different branches of 7 Stars PM. The Interesting thing is the Diao Chun in HK 7* seems to point to the attribute of a fast and illusive lead or lead hand which often has somewhat of a ricochet effect meaning it does both offense and defense pretty much single-handedly (pun intended). This indicates a high degree of agility and softness (“RoLing” as in the form if you will). If done adeptly, it’s pretty impressive. If done poorly, it’s messy to the point that it is simply chasing the hands, which is one of the worst thing any Kung Fu stylist should be doing. Just some thoughts for now. :slight_smile:

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

4

Tiao and Diao

Mantis 108 is right in his differentiation. Pinyin and other romanisations are certainly a problem for most. As far as Tiao being in our 12 list, we also have the principle of Diao as we do every other variant of the 12 keyword formula; dodge, shift, bounce etc. However their is only room for 12 at a time and for that we use a good ‘common’ 12 that represents our style comfortably.. Tiao in our list is roughly translated as ‘lift’, it represents many techniques. You will find it after ‘Pi’-chop, and is often paired with Pi in action as an instant ridirection of force after the application of splitting/chopping. In series and as a identifiable technique or combination; Pi, Tiao, Chong (which is basically- Da) is the chasing method of Chopping, upper cutting and thrust punching. This is a fundamental and often repeated method of Qixing. Although it is conveniently expressed this way, each principle is an individual principle on its own that represents many things.
hope this helps,
b.t

5

Tiao & Diao

Can anyone give me an example of the technique of “Tiao” and “Diao” in a 7*PM form? I practice PM as done by the WHF branch.

6

Diao/Tiao

Diao is the hook hand of movement two of the Eighteen elders form, (the movement right after you put your feet together and hands by your side).

Tiao is found in the clearing hand before the seven star star stance punch of movement eight, (right after the hook grapple punch) in the same set.

Hope it is clear enough. Noting these movements is tough to do for me.

Steve Cottrell

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Re: Diao/Tiao

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
[B]Diao is the hook hand of movement two of the Eighteen elders form, (the movement right after you put your feet together and hands by your side).

Tiao is found in the clearing hand before the seven star star stance punch of movement eight, (right after the hook grapple punch) in the same set.

Hope it is clear enough. Noting these movements is tough to do for me.

Steve Cottrell [/B]

This is definitely clear enough. I know exactly which movements you are taking about. Thank you very much.

So, “Diao” is a hook, but “Tiao” is not. At least, when I do the 18 Elders form, it is an open-hand “Clearing Hand”, like you said. Should the “Clearing Hand” form a “Hook” at the end of clearing?

Thank you again for responding to my question.

8

Mantisben,

First, this is just difference in phonetics, but I generally write “tiao” as “tiu”.

In the WHF lineage, “tiu” is most commonly expressed in three ways: “tiu bo chui”, “go tiu sao”, and “tiu jeung”.

“Tiu bo chui” has already been described by Sifu Cottrell. In the WHF book for “Sup Baht Sao”, they are movements #8 and 17. This is using “tiu” with the arm to block or lift an opponents arm to create the opening for the “bo chui” punch.

“Go tiu sao” is the same concept as “tiu bo chui” and in fact is usually followed by the “bo chui” as in #27 and #28 of Daw Ghong. It also uses the arm in a lifting motion to create an opening but adds the dimension of explosive step in footwork.

“Tiu jeung” is found at the end of many forms such as all the “Zhaat Yiew” forms as well as throughout many other forms. It is most often done in the tiger-riding stance and the double lifting palms.

In response to your last question though, “tiao” and “diao” do not share anything in common except that both intercept and re-direct an opponents arm and that their names rhyme. There is not a hooking motion at the end of “tiao”.

YM

9

Sorry- me again..

I’m performing forms in the LKW-way and still I’m not sure about diao.Tiao is clear.Maybe someone could describe the movement of the arm/hand- from where to where, how is the hand-movement, and so on..? And, to make it even more complicated: LKW has two different TIAOS. The first is the intercept mantis hand grab.Your TIAO.Clear.The second describes the 15th of LKW 31 key-words and his explanation is: to ward off -the skill TIAO is meant to sprout from below to above= roundhousepunch to the genitales.So- is this diao?:confused: thx..lol

10

Originally posted by Young Mantis
Mantisben,
…
“Tiu jeung” is found at the end of many forms such as all the “Zhaat Yiew” forms as well as throughout many other forms.

What is the english translation of “Zhaat Yiew”? Are these the “Route Essence” forms?

[b]In response to your last question though, “tiao” and “diao” do not share anything in common except that both intercept and re-direct an opponents arm and that their names rhyme. There is not a hooking motion at the end of “tiao”.

YM [/B]

I’ve always thought “Tiao” was the Mantis hook, but it is actually “Diao” that uses the Mantis hook.

Thank you for your explanation.

11

Great going..

First off, thank you all for the input.

Hi Brendan,

Great info. Thanks, bros. :slight_smile:

Hi Sifu Cottrell,

Thanks for the follow up. It makes it really clear for a lot of people.

Hi Tanglang,

In LKW’s book, they used the same phonetic for the 2 different words and that the confussion began.

#5 of the 31 is IMHO Diao (intercept) that is with hooking motion

#21 of the 31 is Tiao (ward off) is the somewhat lifting motion that has been discussed. In the book this is given as a circular motion ending with a strike to the groin as the line of travel of the circle returns form the lowest point of the circle to higher point. In this case, he has given 2 examples of Tiao with a smooth motion embeding the concept of defense and offense all in one move. Hope this is clear for you. There is no hooking motion in Tiao as said before.

Warm regards

Mantis108

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Re: Sorry- me again..

Originally posted by tanglang
The first is the intercept mantis hand grab.

This is Diao, according to the information presented in this thread. It is figure 468 in the Lee Kam Wing book “The Secret of Seven-Star Mantis Style” where Lee Kam Wing is doing the form “Pung Po”. The “Diao” is the “Left Intercept Hand with Hill-Climbing Stance” right before the “Right Chopping Fist” in the 2nd road of Pung Po.

The second describes the 15th of LKW 31 key-words and his explanation is: to ward off -the skill TIAO is meant to sprout from below to above…

According to this thread, this is “Tiao”.

13

Spelling

Hi,

referring to the Yale cantonese Spelling:

Intercept: diu (and the 5th keyword LKW lineage)
Ward off: tiu (and the 15th keyword LKW lineage)

Tiu can be found coming with:
tiu jeong: as Young Mantis explained it
tiu tong choi: block with the right arm and straight punch with left! (LKW book page 131)

In fact you found often tiu after diu! :smiley:
Last action in the first road of Sab Ba sao Kuen:
Mantis Hand and the Bo Choi (#20,21). Like Young Mantis mentioned before: there is a ward off with the open hand before the punch!

So I would also say: tiu is no hook! :wink:

14

THX, Mantis108, finally I got it

It’s LKW 15(!!!)=Tiao or @German Bailung: TIU.. so now -finally- the whole discussion in the other thread makes sence for me and doesn’t sound like “chinese” anymore–hehe… :smiley: warm regards TL;)

15

Diao/Dieu Continued

As we have defined the motion clearly I figured we could continue our discussion of the technique’s usage. (Good Confucian principle there, “Retification of Terms”).

The use of the Dieu Sao in Bung Bo Kuen found in WHF’s version movement #22, the upward elbow with the Twisting Stance indicates the strength required in the Dieu to effect restraing the opponent’s arm and providing an opposing brace while the elbow attacks.

The use of the Dieu facilitates a quick release, if necessary, that cannot be done as easily with the Fung Sao (grabbing hand). However in movement #23 of Bung Bo Kuen the Dieu Sao continues to restrain the arm while the practitioner moves into the sideward elbow. Clearly the Dieu is more than a transistional restraint and must be trained as such.

Anyway just another aspect of the Dieu Sao.

(trying to help things along…)
Steve Cottrell

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Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
[B]The use of the Dieu Sao in Bung Bo Kuen found in WHF’s version movement #22, the upward elbow with the Twisting Stance indicates the strength required in the Dieu to effect restraing the opponent’s arm and providing an opposing brace while the elbow attacks.

The use of the Dieu facilitates a quick release, if necessary, that cannot be done as easily with the Fung Sao (grabbing hand). However in movement #23 of Bung Bo Kuen the Dieu Sao continues to restrain the arm while the practitioner moves into the sideward elbow. Clearly the Dieu is more than a transistional restraint and must be trained as such.

Anyway just another aspect of the Dieu Sao.

(trying to help things along…)
Steve Cottrell [/B]

Sifu Cottrell,

I would like to add this application to Bung Bo movement #22 for the forum members to consider:

While the solo form does show the right hand to use a diew sao (mantis hook hand) while twisting into the scissor stance, in application we use the fung sao (full grab). We feel the fung sao is a better choice for pulling the opponent’s arm and controlling it for the elbow strike.

In WHF’s solo Bung Bo book, he does describe the right hand as forming a diew sao. However in his Ling Bung Bo book, he says after doing the pek choy, the right hand uses fung to catch the ling side’s wrist. He does not mention diew sao for this movement in the Ling Bung Bo book.

I think this is a great example of the difference between solo form and practical application. I believe the performance of the diew sao in the solo form is merely cosmetic. It is an example of hidden or disguised techniques within the solo form.

When we practice the ling bung bo form and also this technique in isolated application partner drills, we always use a fung sao.

Just another way to look at this technique.

YM

17

Differences

Hmm,

I think the differences are so small.

I.E. take some different moves:

Fung tong choi and the technique from the sam lou ja yiu: mantis hook with open hand slash to opponents throat.

They both look very different but the application of the moves are very similiar (except the kind of punch!).

In my opinion there is not much difference in the applikation of diu sao and fung sao.
When you grap - you grap. :wink:

18

seal and grab

Feng or sealing as I have seen it is “sealing” the opponents arm to his body.

Or you could say pushing his arm to his body.

Diao, the hooking hand(actually means tricky) is pulling the opponent by the wrist.

Young Mantis,
Do I understand you to say that your definition is different?

19

Fung and feng..

Hmmm- maybe I`ll mess it totally up because of my speech-problem and phonetics; but I’m not quite sure what you have in mind if you hear feng, Tainan mantis? Could you give an example please? I agree in what Young Mantis said, I’m used to make a full grab also ( hope it is called “fung”, like fung tong choi, ie. as I understand it: grabbing the opponents arm and pull it towards ME ) And if I understood mantis 108 right, he described it as pulling towards oneself as well because he said seven stars’ hook, grab, pluck / OU LOU is the same as TJPM feng /bi.

Lo is understood as a grab in 7 Stars as in other mantis branches as well. In TJPM in general, Lo or the grab is applied to a specific target area. Depending on the target area and the follow through action, Lo could be either feng (sealing) or Bi (closing). 7 Stars in general seems to be less concerned with the subtleties of these mechanics. It rather looks at the immediate act which is - a grab is a grab. TJPM would look at the intent or the follow through of the act which is either to seal or to close with the grab. So then you would have hook grab pluck hang in 7 stars keywords while these are grouped under Feng Bi in TJPM keyword.

So it would help at this point if the TCPM-people could give an example for feng and bi? Because if I got YOU, Tainan mantis, then you mean push TOWARDS the opponent- I think this would fit much more to the english word seal also???
So in other words: is there a difference between fung and feng? Forgive me if I understood something totally wrong.. you know my cantonese and english is not as fluent as my german- hehe..:smiley:

20

Re: Re: Diao/Dieu Continued

Originally posted by Young Mantis
[B]

While the solo form does show the right hand to use a diew sao (mantis hook hand) while twisting into the scissor stance, in application we use the fung sao (full grab). We feel the fung sao is a better choice for pulling the opponent’s arm and controlling it for the elbow strike.

In WHF’s solo Bung Bo book, he does describe the right hand as forming a diew sao. However in his Ling Bung Bo book, he says after doing the pek choy, the right hand uses fung to catch the ling side’s wrist. He does not mention diew sao for this movement in the Ling Bung Bo book.

I think this is a great example of the difference between solo form and practical application. I believe the performance of the diew sao in the solo form is merely cosmetic. It is an example of hidden or disguised techniques within the solo form.

When we practice the ling bung bo form and also this technique in isolated application partner drills, we always use a fung sao.

Just another way to look at this technique.

YM [/B]

YM,

Thank you for your presentation of alternatives. I also agree with your analysis of the Fung as a stronger gripping too. Even so, while it is true the the Fung does give a stronger grip, the release of this technique is slower than the Dieu. When used with Duan Ging, (short energy) the Dieu is equally effective to the Fung in assisting the attack.

When I was taught the Ling Bung Bo, we too used the Fung Sao as it both taught variation and helped to secure the flow of the set in performances. We also were taught to use the Dieu. As that was the topic of the thread, I confined my comments to that area. Thank you for, wisely, presenting the range of technique possible. We do not always use the Fung Sao for such things.

Finally, as for the books, I always read them carefully. As you know there are variations, mistakes and some would say, errors in them.

Again, I appreciate your analysis and insight.

Steve Cottrell