Hi all,
I was interested in what interpretations various people have to the 12 keyword formula, I would really like to get my head around it all 
For example, Lee Kam Wing in his book describes “Tag” as a means of moving in close to the opponent, yet another interpretation states it implies “quick contact”.
From a beginners point of view the main problem I find when looking into the 12 keywords is that most give the same example, for example “GWA” to hang/suspend the example normally given is the overhead block therefore for a beginner like me it is hard to comprehend in what other instances this theory is used.
Please include then english (ie. cling / tag / lean) in your replies at first so I dont get confused
Cheers
Keef
Nice idea
Was also confused, keef..
Keef,
The keywords are different from one clan of Tanglang to another. Lee Kam Wing for example started out with twelve from Chu Chi Man and then expanded them to include footwork with Teng-Nuo to bounce and Chen-Shan to dodge. He maintained a twelve concept rather than keyword by grouping them differently. Still later he has expanded his keywords to thirty one.
WHF also arranged the Keywords differently using Dieu Da, (to strike after the hook), instead of the Bung Da, (crushing strike). Perhaps you should list the twelve you are using so that we can all be talking about the same thing.
Great topic,
Steve Cottrell
Hi Steve,
I am refering to the Lee Kam Wing Twelve principles, yes I have noticed in his book that he expands it to 31 keywords but think I should get my head around the first 12 they can be for another day
The twelve keywords, my understanding of them etc is as follows:
Hook - The action of hooking
Grapple - To hold onto/control the opponent, at the elbow
Pluck - The plucking movement, a quick jerking movement often bringing the opponenet of balance.
Upward Block - To hang in mid-air, as often seen with upward block and punch, any other examples anyone?
Intercept Hand - Intercept the attack then immediatly follow it up, usually a hook but I would think any intercept could be used as it is a theory, ie. forearm blocks then slides into a mantis uppercut (dont know the name of move) to face.
Chop - To come from above and and strike down.
Contact - To get contact, i.e. set up a fake stike to the face, they block, contact is made, from this hook etc may be applied.
Cling - Once contact has been made, keep the contact.
Tag - To get in close to the opponent, one would presume this can be done in many ways using footowork.
Lean - Using body mechanics with a leaning motion for a take-down
Dodge - To dodge as the name implies which could be followed by a fist stike, kick etc
Bounce - This is one I am still unsure of, I see that LKW incorporates a kick into this, is it on its own to gain distance? I would like further input on this if possible.
Looking forward to your comments/expansion on this
Keef
My take…
The list of LKW’s keywords seems quite comprehensive. Thanks for posting it.
I posted these thoughts on my forum as well. Enjoy:
<<<Hi Keef,
Again the usual disclaimer that I am not respresenting any other but myself.
I think there are some threads here covering the 12 keywords. It is always a difficult task to tackle them since different schools have different versions. Some time they are practically the same thing but the volcaburaries changed. For example, Lo is understood as a grab in 7 Stars as in other mantis branches as well. In TJPM in general, Lo or the grab is applied to a specific target area. Depending on the target area and the follow through action, Lo could be either feng (sealing) or Bi (closing). 7 Stars in general seems to be less concerned with the subtleties of these mechanics. It rather looks at the immediate act which is - a grab is a grab. TJPM would look at the intent or the follow through of the act which is either to seal or to close with the grab. So then you would have hook grab pluck hang in 7 stars keywords while these are grouped under Feng Bi in TJPM keyword. In essence, both are talking about the same thing yet the expressions are different due to the different point of views. While both 7 Stars and TJPM would tell you they are both striking oriented, it is IMHO that 7 Stars doesn’t concern itself with unbalancing the opponent first. It fights like a boxer (no disrespect intended), who seeks weakness in the opponent’s defenses. Stick and move plus search and destroy type of approach. TJPM fights like a grappler who take every oppotunity to create weakness by unbalance the opponent. Position, position and position and flowing from one position to another kind of thinking. These different approaches are shown in their training which translated into the 12 keywords as well.
Personally, I feel that the 12 keywords are for the stylist to understand the true dynamics of combat in the tradition of the style. This is to say 7 stars thrives on the immediate action while TJPM feasts on the follow through. Both preceive spatial-temporal relationship with mantis skills differently although both shared the same roots.
Warm regards>>>
Mantis108
Zhan1 Adhere/ Contact-Nian2 Stick/ Cling
These are usually considered together. In action they are to connect with an opponent and not let him get his arms free. This is not done by hanging on, however. It is the ability to contact the opponent’s arms and maintain that contact by sensitivity guided reaction. By contacting and clinging one can feel the attacks or escape attempts of the opponent and neutralize them.
Often these two are described as moistening one’s finger and picking up powder.
Initially this quality is expressed through the bridge arms though eventually this can be done with the entire body.
Hope it helps,
Steve Cottrell
WHF defines zhan nien /contact and cling as doing plucking(tsai, short for go lo tsai) 2 times.
In Meihua PM the term go lo tsai is replaced by mo pan.
Although the terminology is slightly different the concept is the same.
Go lo tsai to this hand and that hand.
This is the means to make contact with the body for applying the shorts of the body for striking or applying the takedown.
Good example is moves 20-22 of WHF’s Duo Gang book.
Tainan,
Great to hear from you! Not to split too many hairs but Zhan Shou, (the two Cai Shou or hook grab pluck hands), also is differentiated from Nien as not being defined by a single technique. I agree that it is here that the short come to play or throwing.
Great post,
Steve Cottrell
Great idea..I have an idea also..
..and started up doing this already for me to follow the principle-discussion: I ry to make a translation into german taking up the differences between the lines also and make a list : LKW----- cantonese— english explanation---- german explanation, other lineages— the same …so it would help if everyone who makes a post writes downunder, from whitch lineage he comes- what about this? Seeems to become an international project.. So I take notes and it would be great if german bailung and GermanMantis or Tieh would help me doing this…
Steve,
Is it fair to say then that contact/cling is a fairly advanced technique due to the sensitivity required?
TangLang, Yes I am from the LKW lineage, Wo ungefähr du in Deutschland sie leben.
All,
As stated previously tag means to get in close, are we to translate this literally, ie. more than just using cross-leg stance?
Upward Block - to hang in mid air, are there other examples apart from the upward block for this theory?
Bounce - Is this used regularly without a kick.
Wo ungefähr in Deutschland lebst du
I’ll send you a private mail with details- Hey, du kannst ja deutsch.Wo hast du das gelernt? In der Schule?
tanglang,
ja ich spreche ein bißchen deutsch, ich bin um nacht Schule jetzt deutsch lernen und ich fahren nach Berlin in diesem Jahr auf Feiertag im August
Keef
Re: Great idea..I have an idea also..
Originally posted by tanglang
..and started up doing this already for me to follow the principle-discussion: I ry to make a translation into german taking up the differences between the lines also and make a list : LKW----- cantonese— english explanation---- german explanation, other lineages— the same …so it would help if everyone who makes a post writes downunder, from whitch lineage he comes- what about this? Seeems to become an international project.. So I take notes and it would be great if german bailung and GermanMantis or Tieh would help me doing this…
Allthough the whole translation thing is going to make a mistake from a mistake from a mistake .. I will help putting it in line… But please ask me per PN in German!
@ german Bailung
o.k. discussion about german translation via p.m. and then post or post- correction-suggest via p.m. and I’ll correct..somehow like this maybe so the others don’t have to follow our german linguistic discussion- hey Greman Bailung- I remember you were able to understand a bit mandarin, I think? This will help to avoid mistakes
@ keef 321
You’ll get my p.m.s in german then… You mean “Abendschule”;): Ich bin in der Abendschule, um deutsch zu lernen und ich fahre dieses Jahr im August an einem Feiertag nach Berlin..
Well then.. wish you a nice time there..
Ok.,..nice that you guys can speak german. There is a greman board I think that it would work great on,…in addition to personal messenger wich allows personal conversations to occur without involving the rest of the forum.
Thanks for understanding & do not take offence when I ask you to use them rather than go on chatting here.
Thanks & Best Wishes,
BTL
German
o.k. sorry.. we’ll send p.ms-
Keef,
Zhan/Nian is, as Tainan described and as it written in Wong Hon Fun’s books, a specific technique but is also principle and describes a quality present in many techniques. I recall when I was trying to define what technique represented the keywords Lai sifu told me that I must broaden my thinking.
Still any concept can be taken to extreme and care must be taken when examining these ideas.
As for Zhan Nian being an advanced technique I believe that it should be present from the beginning but can be and should be developed to a high degree as one advances. It facilitates the eight short which enable one to finish an opponent at close range where things are very difficult to counter. It is more of a goal to be acheived.
Hope this helps,
Steve Cottrell
Steve,
Thank you for the explanation, yes maybe I put it across wrong by saying it is an advanced technique but rather as you put it, something that should and can be developed to a high degree. I have done the LKW contact cling drill with my sifu on a few occasions.
Yes I think many priciples can overlap into other principles , one of the good things I personally think the 12 keywords makes us do (well certianly for me) is due to the way they are put over to us we have to do a bit of thinking ourselves.
Keef
o.k. then, I try to resume:
So far we have: ( compared to the LKW-book)
Cantonese english german
-
OU hook festhaken, fangen
-
LOU Grapple fassen
-Tai Chi Mantis:
-feng seal abdichten, ver-
siegeln
-bi closing verschließen
-
TSAI pluck ( mention- pflücken,reißen
ed in LKW-book:
Pluck down fruits
from a tree–i.e. to
make opponent lo-
ose balance)
( OU LO and TSAI- mei hua: MO PAN- means?)
4) KWA Block from down to
above, hang up
something from a
lower to an upper
point ---- Block von
unten nach
oben