12 Keyword Formula

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

again..

  1. TIAO-- intercept-- often used as OU/Hook-- abfangen, auffangen = “Mantis-hand”
  2. PENG --chop: LKW: strike down from above----runterschlagen, zerhacken
    WHF: " calls it DIEU DA- to strike after the hook"(Quote) —Question: Doesn’t DIEU DA mean " free hand"- German Baillung or anyone Cantonese- speaking person?
  3. CHAN – to takecontact to the coming attack—Kontakt aufnehmen
  4. NIEN cling, to stick -“kleben”
    CHAN/NIEN contact and then stick don’t letting the arms get free again-----WHF sometimes called it plucking-action= TSAI though…is that right ?
  5. TIEH --tag: get in close attack with the opponent by footwork----sich “dranhängen”
  6. KAO --lean: use body-mechanic for take-down----anlehnen, abstützen
    also TIEH/KAO together
  7. SHAN dodge: escape and avoid comming attack–ausweichen, zur Seite springen
  8. TENG_NUO–bounce: quick movement in a close contact with leg-kicking-technique:LKW–plötzlicher Sprung= sudden jump
22

So unclear for me is:

MO PAN, and its meaning and maybe DIEU DA- can you give a concrete example again maybe?-- sorry..:slight_smile:

23

one

First Question:

dieu da: kant. doi da? Mandarin dui da?

If that is meant: the propper translation is: against hit(s) (doi means: against, da simply means Hit, Strike etc)

Free hand or bare hand is Kant: hong sao or mandarin kong shou (jap: kara - te!!)

24

two

The twelve keywords are better (in my opinion) used as 8 Basic Skills:

  1. Au Lao Tsoi/wo lou cai: hook, grab and pluck in one movement
  2. Gua Tong/gua tong: hang up something and strike
  3. Bang Da/beng da: explosive Hit
  4. Diu Tsun/diao jin: be tricky and go forward
  5. Him Hsin/qian shan: go up and move sidewards (with the handmove Bo Choi: block and punch!)
  6. Tip Kao/tie kao: to cling and lean
  7. Chim Nim Sao/zhan nian shou: hand is etreme sticky (Chi sao… :wink: )
  8. Tang Na/teng nuo: bounce and jump on the other foot!
25

Ahh.

O.k. then.Looked on LKW-formlist: Tou fa san DOI DA is translated into Peach Blossom Free Hand Boxing there- that’s why I thought. there was my mistake.thx Jochen;)

26

Yes, right..

@ answer two: there you refer to our eight so called basic-techniques..:wink:

27

ohh

your welcome! :cool:

That Answer is for the “Ahh” Answer, but Seven-Star was too quick for me… with writing! :wink:

28

Didn’t see it

You just wrote the same..sorry..smile:) ahhhhhh! Verstehe..I understand.. they call me the quick-hand, you know;)

29

Re: again..

Originally posted by tanglang
[B]5) TIAO-- intercept-- often used as OU/Hook-- abfangen, auffangen = “Mantis-hand”

  1. PENG --chop: LKW: strike down from above----runterschlagen, zerhacken
    WHF: " calls it DIEU DA- to strike after the hook"(Quote) —Question: Doesn’t DIEU DA mean " free hand"- German Baillung or anyone Cantonese- speaking person?[/B]

Dieu is the same word as Tiao (hook). So Dieu Da would be Tiao Da, (the Da is the same as you would use in Beng Da) It means to strike after the Tiao, (hooking) hand.

Originally posted by tanglang
[B]7) CHAN – to takecontact to the coming attack—Kontakt aufnehmen

  1. NIEN cling, to stick -“kleben”
    CHAN/NIEN contact and then stick don’t letting the arms get free again-----WHF sometimes called it plucking-action= TSAI though…is that right ?
    [/B]

Chan Nien:
In Wong Hon Fun’s writings there is a place where he gives an example of Chan as doing Ou Lou Tsai twice. I take this more as a single example.Chan Nien is a quality in many techniques.

For an example of Mo Pan, see LKW’s book “The secret of seven star mantis style” page 101 figure 222-224 also called the Millstone Palm.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

30

WHF

Hmm, very interesting!

So Dieu (Diu) Da is the Diu Chun Movement with the Bo Choi like in almost every Seven Star Form!
Like: you grab with the Mantis hand (Diu Sao) and immediatly push a coming strike aside and punch by yourself! (Hope everyone can understand!)

Millstone Palm: Mo bun jeong with open Hands.

But the movement is alsmost similar but the applikation is total different?

31

Yes, I got you, Steve

So you mean mo bun choeng ( Don’t know if the writing of the last word is correct-- German Bailung- you know , I’m sure?thx) but what does MO and what does BUN or PAN mean translated, I meant? :slight_smile:

32

as far …

as far as I know: mo means: gentle touch with the Hand, and Pan means: move, remove, shift!

For the Cantonese Words of all Techniques in the Lee Kam Wing Book, you can look here:

http://www.bailung.de/grundtechniken.htm

33

Millstone Palm

Mo Pan in Wong Hon Fun’s books “Millstone” . In Lee Kam Wing’s book different characters are used but I believe the meaning is the same, that of a “Millstone”.

Good to get to know you guys.

Steve

34

Maw Poon Sao (Cantonese)

German Bai Lung,
Maw itself means to grind. There is another word that has the same sound but different tone and different character for gentle touch. It is very important to know which character is being used when translating.

Maw Poon refers to a grinding stone. LKW translates this as millstone although I don’t have the book in front of me and don’t know what characters he uses. Old Chinese grinding stones are a thick cylinder sitting upon another stone disk. The cylinder is spun and thus crushing the grain or whatever it is being ground. When using this grinding stone, your hands move in a circular fashion to turn the cylinder. When using maw poon sao, your hands move in a circular fashion as if turning the grinding stone.

It is important to understand that translating each word separately can often not have the same meaning as when two words are used in conjunction. I see several posts of people trying to understand a term by translating each character separately. While the meaning might be similar, it also is often not accurate to the true intent of the term.

Good luck with your studies.

YM

35

Re: Maw Poon Sao (Cantonese)

Originally posted by Young Mantis
[B]

It is important to understand that translating each word separately can often not have the same meaning as when two words are used in conjunction. I see several posts of people trying to understand a term by translating each character separately. While the meaning might be similar, it also is often not accurate to the true intent of the term.

YM [/B]

Hi Young Mantis,

you are absolutely right! It was a Beginner (in speech) mistake! Sorry for that.
But for explanation: I began my studies of chinese Language and Culture at university and only the very old Language of the Chou Dynastie (1000 bc till 300 ad!). At that time almost all Words are only one character!

So I guess you are Chinese?

36

Hey, young mantis..

thx for millstone-explanation!- it’s a really nice allegory for the movement ..

37

1st book of Sif Lee

In the first book (written by Sifu Leung Ting) i found the following:

ou - hook
lou - grapple
tsai - pluck
kwa - upward block
tiao-chin - go forward AFTER intercept
peng ta - chop
chan - contact
nien - cling
tieh - tag
kao - lean
chien-chan - dodge
teng nuo -bounce

and a very interessting note:

In the twelve-keyword Formula, the keywords ou, lou, tsai, kwa, chan, nien, tieh and kao are commonly acknowledged by martial artists of NPM, while the rest four keywords vary in terminology among different branches and individual practitioners.

For this reason, some martial artists of the 7* PM agree that the 12 KW Verbal formula should be o,l,t,k,Tiao(Intercept), Chin(go forward), Peng (Chop), Ta (attack), c,n,t and kao. As for the techniques of chien-shan and teng nuo, they are not included in the 12 KW Formula!

However, the author, after having discussed with Sifu Lee Kam Wing and searching into lots of available sources, finds that there are doubts about the terminology of the above 12 KW, which do not cover the scope of the techniques of the system. that is why we prefer the set of 12 KW as described and explained in the book by the author, bearing in mind that this is the personal idea of the author himself, and does not represent the opinion of all the practitioners of the 7* PM or other branches of Northern PM!

My note: the author was Leung Ting!

38

mo bun jeung

so now I check the characters (online dictionary):

mo: grind, polish
pun: basin, tub, pot, bowl

So, once more I must realize: chinese is not as easy as may seem… :wink:
(nor english…)

Young Mantis: your explanation is very good.

So lets speak about the applikation: why does mo pun jeung used as a veriation of ou lou tsai …
or am I wrong once again?

For me thats totaly different:

like young mantis said: mpj is circular and hitting the oponent with the hand from aside.

ou lou tsai controls the oponents arm and hitting him direct in the face!

39

Futher thoughts…

<<<In the first book (written by Sifu Leung Ting) i found the following:

ou - hook
lou - grapple
tsai - pluck>>>

Tainan mentioned WHF’s Sao Fa - Tsai Sao means hook grab pluck twice. I think it is important to distinguish the tsai in the context of 12 KW and in the context of drill or application.

<<<kwa - upward block>>>

I believe there are 2 kinds of Kwa even as a check/block. WHF also mentioned inner and outer kwa applications. Not much details were given by him though.

<<<tiao-chin - go forward AFTER intercept
peng ta - chop>>>

I think there is a catch here. Tiao seems to be used as Diao. This could lead to a bit of a confusion. Personally, Tiao (lifting) and Diao (diagonally downward pulling or laterial pulling) are very different actions. Tiao, along with Beng, Pi, and Chong, also appears in the Qingdao version of 12 KW. These 4 words are very close in sounds with tiao-chin-peng-ta (HK version).

There are 2 possibilities - 1) it is a phonetic problem in oral transmission. 2) the change in the words is deliberate to reflect a change in mindset or development. I believe #2 is quite likely.

<<<chan - contact
nien - cling
tieh - tag
kao - lean>>>

These 4 words together with Beng Pi Tiao Chong IMHO reflect 7 Stars Long Fist heritage and perhaps its wish to be fully recognized as “Shaolin authentic”.

<<<chien-chan - dodge
teng nuo -bounce>>>

These 4 words is in general body methods rather than hand method. They are IMHO very improtant as well. Beng Da Diao Chin are somewhat similar in certain sense. So LGY and/or his desciple(s) might have taken that in to consideration already.

<<<and a very interessting note:

In the twelve-keyword Formula, the keywords ou, lou, tsai, kwa, chan, nien, tieh and kao are commonly acknowledged by martial artists of NPM, while the rest four keywords vary in terminology among different branches and individual practitioners.

For this reason, some martial artists of the 7* PM agree that the 12 KW Verbal formula should be o,l,t,k,Tiao(Intercept), Chin(go forward), Peng (Chop), Ta (attack), c,n,t and kao. As for the techniques of chien-shan and teng nuo, they are not included in the 12 KW Formula!

However, the author, after having discussed with Sifu Lee Kam Wing and searching into lots of available sources, finds that there are doubts about the terminology of the above 12 KW, which do not cover the scope of the techniques of the system. that is why we prefer the set of 12 KW as described and explained in the book by the author, bearing in mind that this is the personal idea of the author himself, and does not represent the opinion of all the practitioners of the 7* PM or other branches of Northern PM!>>>

I think the disclaimer is quite appropiate. I should also say that my comments only represent my own opinions.

Mantis108

40

Re: mo bun jeung

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
[B]So lets speak about the applikation: why does mo pun jeung used as a veriation of ou lou tsai …
or am I wrong once again?

For me thats totaly different:
[/B]

In WHF mantis, we consider ou lou tsai as a concept.

Ou lou tsai can refer to the specific technique of hook grapple pluck punch. Ou lou tsai can also refer to the timing and flavor of execution of engaging an opponent with a sensitive interception, controlling the opponent, and simultaneously striking.

So we consider that there are techniques that fit into the class of ou lou tsai. Mo pun jeung then has the same style of execution as the namesake ou lou tsai motion.

Another example of ou lou tsai method can be fan tin yun. We also can do fan che chui in the style of ou lou tsai. So when you consider ou lou tsai as a concept or class of techiques, you can find ou lou tsai in many sequences, even in using shin kick with hand motions, for example.

N.