Hook, Grasp, Pluck are my basic understanding of these three keywords.
It would be interesting to see the variation in concepts attributed to these keywords from family to family.
I’ve seen some discussion on this in the past when I was lurking and not posting. Hoping to see some more good discussion in this thread.
I have some thoughts based on my limited NM training but they don’t seem to coincide with the popular opinion. Something occured to me that gave me a non-standard view of ‘pluck’ which I have yet to discuss with anyone and haven’t tested it yet either. It will take some training and very good timing skill.
I’ll just lurk here awhile and see what the experts say. My ideas are usually met with narrow minded, IMO, resistance.
oso, good topic. In my experience I have seen variations in only the plucking. This I feel might vary from style to style. alot of tiimes 8 step has things that came from other styles but resemble the tech’s origin. sometimes obvious sometimes you have to look a little.
I had a Jook Lum PM student try my class for a few weeks. He learned our gou lo tsai (sp). I noticed he grabbed from underneath on the controlling hand. We control with controlling hand on top and side if we are pushing out. I showed my students how I could easily escape from this underside version, a move out of the ling side to bengbu.
maybe one place to start would be with some of the different spellings…just tried some searching in the archives and didn’t come up with much for gou, lou or cai.
some people spell ‘gou’ as just ‘ou’, right? and ‘cai’ as ‘tsai’ ???
gou shou
Gou shou is a hook hand.
It is divided into xu and shi which is to say empty and solid.
Empty is a hook without a solid grab.
Solid is a hook wich becomes a solid and firm grab.
The hook hand does not imply a push or a pull.
When it pulls, it is usually called tsai or pluck.
When gou pushes it is usually called feng or seal.
But WHF of HK 7* wrote in a book a slightly different definition.
“Gou is diao(tricky), it is false and towards the outside…”
He defines diao shou,“…hook firmly the attacking hand…”
So you will see that there is a small difference between all the different schools of Mantis on the definition of these types of grabs.
Kevin
Thanks, Kevin. This thread was of course inspired from your comment in the last email.
would you mind giving the tones for ‘xu’ and ‘shi’ as you are using them?
Empty is a hook without a solid grab.
as in ‘sticking’ or ‘sticky hands’ ?
Solid is a hook wich becomes a solid and firm grab.
when i practice our ‘GLC’ basic drill I always think of the ‘gou’ part as actually two parts…the ‘intercepting’ empty hooking hand and then the ‘solid’ grabbing part.
in application I rarely grab, preferring to stick, follow and crash…of course, my body type lends itself to the crashing part 
When gou pushes it is usually called feng or seal.
man this is great stuff you posted…
ok!..do you still count it as ‘feng’ no matter if it is ‘xu’ or ‘shi’!?
for me, i prefer to ‘feng’ w/ ‘xu’ as I think it gives me better sensitivity vs. a hard grab which, imho, takes some sensitivity away.
diao shou,“…hook firmly the attacking hand…”
ok, this is a biggee for me…for those that remember, much less give half a wormy rats ass…i came here some 5 years ago looking for mantis as I’d been learning a ‘system’ of mantis for 10 years. But, as I branched out via Sifu Cottrel’s article in IKF in 99 or so about a ‘coming together of mantis practitioners’; I found inconsistancies. Go figure. Anway, over the last few years I’ve found bits and pieces of what I was taught in what I’ve been reading and learning. One of those is ‘dwee sow’ (that’s how I spelled it in some old notes) which was a hooking defensive manuever against an attacking punch. ‘dwee’ is close enough to ‘diao’ and ‘sow’ is certainly an aproximation of cantonese for ‘hand’
ok, done…i got to work at 6:55 this morning and left at 9:45…I have at least two more bourbon’s to drink and a shower is a must or my girl won’t let me sleep in the bed…
Hi Matt,
xu level tone (-)
shi (v).
Please do not mix gou with zhan or nian.
It is not sticking. That is another thing.
I will send a clip to you of this. You can post it for all if you have the technology
(I do not).
For some techniques the grab of gou is essential.
So if you use empty grab and the technique works ok then it is likely ok.
There is also the Yang gou.
It is an upside down gou to the tricep area.
Usually called yang gou di jiao
Which is “yang(of yin-yang)hook and provoking from underside.”
It is important to understand which techniques require a solid grab and which don’t.
As for gou lou crash, I am not sure of what that is.
Feng or seal is always a solid technique.
It is a push, usually of pushing the opponents elbow into his body.
But also a pushing pull(or pulling push) where the arm is stretched acros his centerline towards his opposite ear.
In this case the concept of feng bi, sealing and closing, are fully realized.
This is important to undersatnd as it is part of the 12 keywords of our Mantis.
In 7*'s 12 keywords there is no feng bi(and meihua has no gou lou tsai in their 12 keywords).
Glad to see you made the diao shou connection.
For me this has been confused with other types of grabs and I had many talks with other mantis athourity to compare our viewpoints.
It is nice to see different ideas.
I think that my view of diao will be different from yours.
As for gou lou crash, I am not sure of what that is.
that’s just me
usually just a shoulder bump…although most people feel it as a bit more than a bump. or I reap and follow to the ground…or grab the head in my armpit and pivot.
I need to read the rest of your post more after I’ve had coffee…
So based on these descriptions Gou Lou Cai is a one handed technique? It always seems to be associated with a 3 handed sequence from what I’ve seen.
I have seen one handed plucking exercises.
If Gou can be empty or solid (xu and shi) then wouldn’t Hook Grasp Pluck be Gou Shi Cai? Where Gou Shi would be a Hook which goes into a solid Grab. Where does the Lou come in?
So Gou Lou Cai is Hook Grasp Pluck and Gou Lou Feng is Hook Grasp Seal. That matches something I’m a little more familiar with.
Sorry for being so simple minded, I don’t have a big background with this stuff.
Oso
Please pst the clip when you get it. It would help me tremendously. TIA.
Ou Ji, i think GLC can be one or two handed. Our first mantis exercise is called Xioa Si Shou and the first move is a one handed intercept, grab and pull with the left hand as you step in with the right foot and hit them in the head w/ an outer hanging punch.
i don’t have immediate ability to post the clips he sent…i’m having problems with my web person. i’ll try and get them up if i can.
Advanced/preferred method in WHF/Brendan Lai line for the diao in the ou-lou-choi specific sequence is the empty one.
Ou-lou-choi is a specific sequence, as well as a class of techniques, as well as a theory of application. People should not be trapped by literal translation.
N.
While there are definitely specific techniques associated with all the keywords, I’ve always thought that they were also conceptial in nature as well, as you say.
could you not essentially GLC with your leg/foot against another leg attack?
If you can grasp with your feet then why not. I think they do that in Boiled Monkey Fist but I’m not sure.
I understand that it’s more concept with the specific app just an example. It’s just that the same example always seems to be shown so it’s hard to seperate them.
-N-
Are you using the Choi as an alternate spelling for Cai/Tsai? Or is it Choi as in Choy or Punch.
My Boiled Monkey Fist Style is unbeatable!!!
In all seriousness, and at the chance of sounding egotistical, my ‘sticky legs’ is pretty good and i will utilize the 7* hooking step foot thingie and keep an opponents leg trapped pretty well. but, i’ve been doing that far longer than I’ve ever heard of gou lou cai.
fwiw, a lot of judo/jujitsu foot sweeping is intercepting/hooking/plucking.
Gou Lou Cai once more…
I concurred with Kevin. Great explanations, man! 2 thumbs way up Gou Lou Cai can and should be applied with footwork (ie Tsun bu, Ti bu, Die bu, etc..). So the liberal or conceptual application of Gou Lou Cai with the leg or while standing up is really a mute point IMHO. Now if you were to apply that on the ground, then it definitely will need some investigating. But it can be done IME.
Regarding the 12 characters, the 7 star version is based off the Lao Wu Shou (5 old hands) of Tanglang and is more literal IMHO. The Taiji/Meihwa version is more subtle. The Lao Wu Shou goes under Feng Bi (sealing and closing) and can be expressed as a drill - Feng Shou.
Just some thoughts to share.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Ngau, Lou,Choy are movement ideas…
Hello Oso,
These are the prime movements, ideas gleened from the observation/interpretation of the praying mantis-ape.
They can be applied to handwork, bodywork, legwork and footwork
as well as intent .
Intent
good point…hmmm, i think mental hooking would be what my old hung gar teacher would call ‘drawing’: pulling your opponent in against their will almost…setting them up through a suble use of movement, facial expression and ‘intent’.
Gou Lou Cai work on the wrist and it’s just not good enough. If you don’t control your opponent’s elbow then his forearm is still free and you are not control his arm completely.
If you use both hands then one hand should control your opponent’s wrist and one hand should control your opponent’s elbow. If you use just one hand then you should control your opponent’s elbow instead of your opponent’s wrist.
Hate to see that when you control your opponent’s wrist and intend to punch his head with the other hand but he gives you a elbow strike on your chest first (by using the same arm that you grab his wrist).
our basic drill is right hand on wrist, left hand on elbow, leave left hand on elbow (feng) and strike w/ right hand.