Exploding the Myth of the So-called Internal martial arts?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
61

Greetings..

Perhaps a broad picture of Tai Chi (Chinese internal martial arts) is appropriate.. Martial, represented by the character Wu (war)..
War, is so much more than the battlefield clash of armies. It is the preparation, the training, the learning of tactics (forms).. it is the correct “mind-set”, the clarity needed to engage the opponent (meditation).. training the mind to be a part of conflict process rather than thinking of a response, the trained (clear) mind allows the physical training to respond “naturally”.. Study philosophies, know your opponents’ likely strageties, his fears and motivations.. even studying the movements of differing styles will add depth to your own arsenal.. War is not a single clash of armies, it is a well thought-out game of strategies played-out over time.. a woefully overlooked aspect of Chinese internal martial arts, one not mentioned in this thread, is healing.. the soldiers (or a single practicioner) gets wounded or injured, the war is not won with a crippled army.. healers are an essential aspect of war.. if we neglect to educate our students on basic maintenance skills, proper nutrition, and basic healing arts we have done them an injustice..

Yes, the most apparent evidence of the Arts’ validity may be upon the battlefield, but the preparation to get there is at least as important, and the ability to return to the war day after day (broken and fixed, broken and fixed again) is the signature of good leadership.. Although i don’t believe it, it sounds like many on this thread discount all but the battle.. to the novice or inexperienced this thread sounds like so much other kick-butt, chest-beating, self-inflating rhetoric, that i fear we diminish the perception of the Art to just another “King-of-the-hill” martial art..

The well-trained Tai Chi Player is a feared adversary, a welcome friend and an assett to the community and the culture (whichever culture the Player represents).. Please be strong enough to present the whole picture, to be an ambassador “for” the art rather than one that dulls its finely polished image..

Of course Tai Chi is a Martial Art, it was spawned from the finest Martial Arts culture on the planet, but like any child, it grows and evolves into its own identity, unless we confine it with limited vision of its potential.. Too often, those that can’t tap into the “mystical Chi” aspect find it easier to “explode the myth” than make the effort to attain it for themselves.. sort of the “if i can’t have it, neither can you” syndrome… but, i say.. “Live and let Live”.. Unless, of course, the Tao has appointed someone as its official spokes-person, uniquely qualified to direct the rest of us in the appropriate interpretation of Tai Chi..

Oh, and please stop raggin’ on the “hippies”.. that was then, this is now.. most of the accomplished, mature and seasoned fighters i know are ex or closet hippies.. Prejudices and generalities are not attractive attributes..

The above was written in sincere good-will, i hope it will be received in the same manner, be well.. be real..

62

I have to agree with Taichibob’s last Post.

This is the way I see TJQ, or atleast that was it was invented for.

I am going after the Chen Family requirements to study the Arts and their code of conduct for practicioners.

One problem I see is that many People simlpy look at the name of “Great Empirical Fist”, which I regard as a wrong translation.

Tai = Great
Chi = Extreme, Polar, etc
Chuan = Fist or Conflict.

Too many people see TJQ as balanced, but it an be also viewed as containing extremes (fast & slow, open & close, hard & soft, etc.)

Not many thinks in asia are very clear and only express 1 concept.

Cheers.

63

some questions for the venerables

Whats up folks? Got some questions for the venerables here. This thread has brought up some issues that i have been thinking about in regards to tai ji, so i figured i’d just ask a few.

  1. Although the theory of Tai Ji is found within Tai Ji Chuan, is there a limit to its application within Tai Ji Chuan? Does there need to be a distinction as to where Tai Ji stops and Tai Ji Chuan’s own tenets become tantamount?

  2. For those who have a fighting focus within their school, how long does it take to create a tai ji fighter? How is this approached in the sense of training the fighter and what methods are used in order to get the fighter to a level of competency?

Peace :smiley:

64

Re: some questions for the venerables

Originally posted by illusionfist
[B]

  1. Although the theory of Tai Ji is found within Tai Ji Chuan, is there a limit to its application within Tai Ji Chuan? Does there need to be a distinction as to where Tai Ji stops and Tai Ji Chuan’s own tenets become tantamount? [/B]

I don’t think that there is a border, but a smooth merging and flowing between the concepts.

For me Tai Ji Quan is simply one way in which the Tai Ji can manifest itself.

Cheers.

65

Opinions,opinions, opinions…Nothing wrong with people opinions.

The truth of the matter is, this discussion is about today internal Martial Artists, and why are there so many of these individuals that can’t apply their method in a real situation.

Like always, people love to go back to discussions of Chinese Martial morality(WuDe) or should I say morality of deed. I hang out mostly with Chinese teachers in china town, So I have full knowledge and comprehension of what the Martial is, represented by the character Wu. I breathe, talk, live, and walk the $hit everyday.

I don’t just read books on the Wu, explaining the character Wu, as many So-called followers of the Wu today do, explaining the character Wu, With the ever/present tea with out even breaking a sweat.(training) These kinds of people are 99% of What is out there now teaching. And they are doing a good job teaching Bull$hit. Myth internal boxers of 2002.

Many hide behind (wudu) always trying to explain $hit they don’t truly understand. Only the individuals that have put in the time and sweat. (train&fought) know and can truly understand what Wu is all about. But today there are many internal practitioners that are teaching, never been in a fight, or fought in they life. But they try to act like they know what the wu is about. What a joke.

Many of them running around town, doing workshops, mostly talking bull$hit and teaching Bull$hit. Not one of these individuals would last in a street fight, but they got a lot of fools thinking their learning some powerful Chi kung method for health& self-defense. And when most of these fakes are not condition, can’t even hold a basic Chi Kung static posture for to long. But these fakes claim they have Chi…What a Joke and myth these fakes are living.

Today we have the ever peace loving non -contact (fighting) scholar method.(chi is all I need boys) And boy, theres a hell of a lot of followers of this method today. I call them the esoteric fighters of today, these guys think they can strike lightly and hurt you, with they so-called powerful Chi they claim they develop.

Any old school Chinese teacher will tell you today, back in the old days of china, $hit was hard, hard times, if a individual fighting method was not fast and a practical form of combat, that person would be good as dead!! There was no time to day dream of Chi, the only thing that matter was to hit hard and fast.

As for my Opinions on set-forms and so-called set-strategy. I don’t care how many forms a individuals learn, in a actually fight, a person better be Formless, and their techniques(strategy) formless in a fighting situation. The learning of true fighting tactices is for a individual mind to be formless,(no thought out strategies) When the mind is formless a internal practitioner will be able to adapt and flow to any attack, without thinking about it.

The key to true preparation for combat, is to have no set preparations in the first place. The key is to learn to adapt yourself to your situation and flow with it, acting fully and skillfully in accordance with the present need. Preparing for a fighting situation learning set forms, and combat moves is useless, if your opponent knows how to change and adapt to your fighting tactics. And if you can’t adapt and change yourself in a combat situatin, then your good as dead.

Peace.
Time for me to play some Xbox

66

Internal Craniums and Xbox

Yeah,

But can you do this!

Ooooh Internal!

By the way Novell, have you tried Dynasty Warriors 3 on the Xbox? My son just bought it yesterday and was playing it.
I don’t like the map display, too small and hard to read and get your “Warriror” to the right place on the map to kick some A$$
legendary hero style. :smiley:

67

illusionfist, I see Taijiquan as a DOOR to combat proficiency.

It helps introduce the combat novice to the concepts of timing and posture, but then it has to be put into practice against the resisting opponent. And I’m not even talking push hands - I’m talking free unrehearsed sparring and application against truly resisting opponents.

The thing is that it NEVER stops at there in Taijiquan. To defeat opponents, one can’t fence himself into a given method. He’s supposed to initiate and react to his opponent, and Taijiquan is known for NOT pinning its guys to a specific way of moving.

One is supposed to move in whatever way it takes to get the job done, though Taijiquan is a good training exercise for liberating the body’s natural combat reflexes. But the notion that one “always” yields or “always” attacks or “always” anything - that’s for the mouthboxers, not the FIGHTERS. That’s what theblacktaoist has been saying all along.

As far as how long it takes to become a tai ji fighter, it depends on the student and teacher. But I can show a person how to use a posture like “Ward Off” effectively against all sorts of resisting opponents in less than a day - I just did that with my student. However, health and other responsibilities have limited her opportunities to train with me consistently thus far.

I expect all of my students to have learned some aspect of combat application of Taijiquan. This is because without knowing the combat aspect, one can’t even do the Taiji sets properly for noncombative purposes. How can a person get the jing and posture of a move right if he’s never put his arm into somebody’s face?

And this goes back to the original point: To really get the most out of Taijiquan, I feel that one MUST address the combat issues on an ongoing basis.

All the talk of harmony and health is BS without the ongoing backbone of COMBAT to stand behind it.

68

Planetwc you are one funny Guy.:smiley: What the hell was that you doing in them photos man? Don’t tell me that was beating your opponent without contact…LOL

Yo, I played Dynasty Warriors 3 on the Xbox a few times. I don’t like the map display myself, and your right the map lay is to small and hard to read, the only thing I find difficult in palying the game is getting my warrior to a area before the time limit is up. But other then that,Dynasty Warriors 3 is alright for a martial art game.

HuangKaiVun great post man. Its good to know a few people understand where I’m coming from with my veiwpoints about martial arts. I feel to many people on KFO get upset to fast over a person opinion.

Its alright to discusses the concept of utilizing Chi in combat. But to be real, How many people can apply this energy correctly in a combat situation. There are few teachers, if any that can apply this kind of energy.

But today if you look in a kung-fu magazine you will see a overwhelming number of these uncondition so-called internal teachers advertising false claims of martial skill and Chi power. I read in one Chinese kung fu magazine a few months ago. One individual was claiming in his article to be able to beat a opponent with just Chi, no contact necessary. (The good old projecting Chi method.)

What gets me is, these so called Kung fu magazine print these individuals Bull$hit articles to a overwhelming mass martial art audience to see as truth. It seems internal martial arts is all about the money today for the magazine business,(sells) then the truth (true information)behind martial arts today.

But in light of this fact, internal martial artist must be willing to evaluate their belief systems, even if this means exploding the many myths that have served as they foundation for learning the so-called internal arts in the first place. But as I said before, many individuals fear instability, therefore it is natural for them to resist the destruction of their old belief system (set-forms,set strategy) until they have an acceptable belief system to replace the old one.

My motto is don’t be a slave to set-methods forever.

Peace out
BT

69

What gets me is, these so called Kung fu magazine print these individuals Bull$hit articles to a overwhelming mass martial art audience to see as truth. It seems internal martial arts is all about the money today for the magazine business,(sells) then the truth (true information)behind martial arts today.

Yeah, it does get pretty anoying to see people with little to no skill get rich off fooling other people while my teacher has so much skill in what he does yet remains dirt poor. Being succesful in the martial arts buisness world has little to do with how good you are. It’s all about how well you can market yourself. Some people seem to be pretty good at both the skill and buisness sides but it seems to be pretty rare. Especially since in some cases the fake guy will allready have a chunk of the market and the people will wonder why what real guy does is different.

70

The world’s a funny place. People can be so skeptical of lots of things(God, ufo’s, etc.) but say you practice kungfu and they’ll believe anything you say :smiley:

71

Blacktaoist

Greetings..

Considering all that you have posted, i must agree on many aspects.. True, too few schools (instructors) have a competent combat program.. True, there are many unproven claims about the “mystical Chi” aspect of Tai Chi (its not mystical, just difficult to explain).. Certainly, there are too many laughable articles, photos (staged), and just plain silly rituals that have nothing to do with Tai Chi.. i absolutely agree that forms are just a link to the formless.. and formless is just a return to “natural”..

Where i disagree is in the harshness of your presentation, the condemnation of “99%” of the instructors, and your failure to acknowledge the totality of Tai Chi.. You present only the fighting aspect and appear to blow-off the rest of the art.. I feel that you are doing a dis-service to those of us that do “walk the walk”, those of us that have been in the ring AND in the streets.. In the circle of my Tai Chi acquaintences there are more that are accomplished fighters and teach the same than not.. Perhaps i am fortunate to come from a region (central Florida) where quality is favored over quantity.. but, i measure each person on their merits and reserve judgment on others until i have personal experience upon which to base an opinion..

Many references to ancient masters, ancient ways.. but, Tai Chi evolves with the times.. that doesn’t diminish the combative nature of it, it only makes room for a broader more balanced Art.. if ancient ways were preserved intact, we would still be squatting around campfires and riding horses into battle…

I respect any person willing to test their arts in battle, that respect is diminished by arrogance, by disrespect for others, and by domineering or brutish attitudes.. It is, however, comforting to know that there are those passionate about the basis of Tai Chi, its core concept is Martial.. without that, i too, would hesitate to label a discipline as “Tai Chi”..

Be well, keep the faith.. and know that their will always be those that preserve the integrity of Tai Chi..

72

Where i disagree is in the harshness of your presentation, the condemnation of “99%” of the instructors, and your failure to acknowledge the totality of Tai Chi.. You present only the fighting aspect and appear to blow-off the rest of the art.. I feel that you are doing a dis-service to those of us that do “walk the walk”, those of us that have been in the ring AND in the streets..

TaiChiBob, I don’t feel I’m doing a dis-service to other individuals that practice the internal art as a whole system. All I’m doing is letting people know the real deal. And that deal is Tai Chi is a killing Art, that many today could not even kill a fly with the method.

As I said before, I have full knowledge of all Tai Chi aspests. If I appear to blow-off the rest of the art, then thats because I don’t see too much today in Tai Chi on any level, this is why I mostly practice BaGuaZhang and Hsing Yi boxing. most practitioners of these methods that I met were more fit and in better condition then Tai Chi practitioners, that most of the time are fat and can’t even move well.

I don’t even have to discuss just the fighting aspect of the Tai Chi system. Even the health aspect of Tai Chi is poor, all you have to do is pick up any martial art magazine to see that, You see a lot of these Tai Chi teachers in these masrtial art magazine need to get in shape, just looking at the photos of them you can tell they are in very poor condition and have no strength. All you have to do is look at the Bad looking postures of these individuals that are always writing about Tai Chi as some great health& meditation self-defense system.

Now I did my homework(study tour of martial arts) for many years. I met and visit many people that practice the so-called internal and external in this country, as well as other country’s, and in my own observation of many martial artists that I have encounter. My opinion is there are few, if any individuals, that can apply these so-called internal methods, or are they in great Health or develop some kind of Chi power, from practicing the so-called internal methods. The internal methods today is mostly practice for exercise and for Show. (Form competition)

So the truth is just the truth, theres not much to the internal martial arts today, but forms, forms, forms. Nothing real behind the forms. (true skills) Today all you see is people talking about how great a so -called internal master look. Today most people seem to be looking for how great a internal practitioner move they hands and feet in solo training.

But in a real fighting situation against a opponent, many of these great internal form players can’t even take one step to apply one technique from their flowery so-called internal boxing sets.

The bottom line is, I’m not against the so-called internal systems, but so far I have seen and met better fighting condition and in better health, practitioners of the so-called external styles then in the internal methods.

I just few the internal today, is all talk of esoteric fighting techniques and healing talk, statements coming from mostly individuals that are not even on a expert level to have these discussions about theses principles and methods, when undoubtedly their lacking in true knowledge and skill.

IF THE BLIND LEADS THE BLIND, IT WILL NOT DO OTHERS ANY GOOD.

Peace
BT

73

I suggest you check into some of the Chen taiji players before you leap to those conclusions.

BTW, applying your logic, because there are a lot of McDonalds out there serving fast quasi-food, fine cuisine is dead.

I just think you oversimplfy matters.

And I also think that some of the best martial artists don’t look for the limelight. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

But, I could be wrong.

:cool:

74

There is also the other side of the coin: A master kicks a$$ with his method and then people dismiss it as simply boxing. They don’t see the technique in there so its just boxing.

So, some want function, not form. But then they walk away from something completely functional because it does not take the form they have preconceived about an art from the beginning.

75

Blacktaoist

Greetings..

I sincerely applaud your passion.. and hope your posts shock some into awareness.. But, i stand firm in my assertion that there are more qualified fighters representing Tai Chi (Chen and Yang) than you are willing to admit (or have met).. i’ve been in the Martial arts community for more than 3 decades (yeah, i’m an old ****), i was trained classically in hard Japanese styles, wandered my way through most “flavors” of the Arts, and arrived at the Chinese Systems in the late '80s.. a fair percentage +/- 30% of my students have made similar journies and find that Tai Chi is the catalyst that makes it all work “right”.. I sense that your history may be close in nature as well..

If you should be so fortunate as to be in the central Florida area (or, if we should be so fortunate as to have you visit), please contact me, i will e-mail you with my contact info.. i would be honored to meet you..

I hope this dialogue has been received in the spirit of its intentions.. that we ALL prosper..

Be well..

76

Human nature. It still exists in the internal arts. It exists in governments, police forces, and churches. This is simply not surprising.

I have seen external schools do sparring sessions too. These guys poke at each other, stop constantly, pull shots, and overcommit balance because they know they can get away with mistakes and nobody is going to get hurt badly. A lot of these guys cannot fight any better than any other non MA person willing to just go hard for 15 seconds of sheer fury.

Sparring is fine, but it does not make the internals work or make it real anymore than the external styles that poke and stop constantly after every good strike. Sparring is a tool. It is one step up from forms, but does not make a great internal fighter in and of itself.

Understand what I am saying, and this is just my opinion. I do not think you become a good internalist without sparring. However, sparring does not make a good internal fighter. There is a lot more to it than that or everybody who spars would be good.

If I were to spar a TKD guy who spars with his buddies a lot, and suddenly charge him with good balance, and grab his throat violently with both hands, uprooting him, and slam him to the ground, mounting him and start thrusting elbows into his face as hard and fast as I could, do you think his previous sparring would help him in this situation? I think the fact that I broke his sparring rules and he is now gasping for real air would lock his responses up to where I would see no real TKD at that point, but pure survival and panic.

So, it makes total sense to me that this problem is very pervasive within most martial arts schools. This is one reason I did not go out to the first McKarate or McTKD schools around here, of which there are a multitude.

If you need fake shcools, no need to seach out the internal schools, there are plenty in the yellow pages of every major city in almost every style.

77

Peace All

I’ve been too busy to get back here sooner, but anyway,
This is to
Tai Chi Bob:

(A woefully overlooked aspect of Chinese internal martial arts, one not mentioned in this thread, is healing. the soldiers (or a single practitioner) gets wounded or injured, the war is not won with a crippled army. healers are an essential aspect of war. if we neglect to educate our students on basic maintenance skills, proper nutrition, and basic healing arts we have done them an injustice.)

First and foremost, this topic is not about health. KFO has a forum set up for that. If that’s what you want to discuss, that’s where you should be.
Besides we’re Internal stylist to begin with, the health benefits are a given with proper practice. If you’re not in good health to begin with how can you fight?
All that you mention here is a given, in school. This topic is about usage, Period. Morality and Ethics have no place here.
If you get hurt in the heat of combat all you can do is either suck it up and continue or run (if you can). The healing can only begin after the conflict, and it’s all about not needing to be healed. That’s supposed to be for the other man.

(Yes, the most apparent evidence of the Arts’ validity may be upon the battlefield, but the preparation to get there is at least as important, and the ability to return to the war day after day (broken and fixed, broken and fixed again) is the signature of good leadership. Although I don’t believe it, it sounds like many on this thread discount all but the battle. To the novice or inexperienced this thread sounds like so much other kick-butt, chest-beating, self-inflating rhetoric, that I fear we diminish the perception of the Art to just another “King-of-the-hill” martial art.)

What are you talking about here? This is what we‘ve always talked about. “Conditioning“. In order to be a proficient fighter, proper conditioning is an absolute must. Again, what’s your point?
As far as your comment on the “king of the hill” act, again this thread is about usage. The consideration of the non achieved is misplaced here. To talk of fighting in the Internal in the first place requires that all those involved be at some level of accomplishment in their training. If they are not, then all they should do is sit back and learn. This is not elementary school. We are Internal martial artist. The collage of the martial Arts. Have these arts not been equated with the scholarly? I will not drop down to the level of individuals who cannot even hold a static posture for more than 20-30min. besides most of this stuff they would learn through experience anyway if they would train. .

(The well-trained Tai Chi Player is a feared adversary, a welcome friend and an assett to the community and the culture (whichever culture the Player represents).. Please be strong enough to present the whole picture, to be an ambassador “for” the art rather than one that dulls its finely polished image..)

Who are you talking about? I don’t know anybody like that where I’m from. It’s put up or get F%$k up.
Now getting down to it, the end result, on a basic level, of all this training is too able to fight. We teach all aspects of Ba-Gua, but our emphasis is on fighting and health. For those that what more, we can go there too. Just because for the most part we talk about applications and ability in true situations doesn’t mean that we have nothing else. Don’t sleep on us. Mastery is the goal. It can’t be reached by half assing it. Fighting is fundamental in that process. But yet non-fighters are teaching and promising the impossible to the gullible masses. Who’s Tarnishing the Image?
Truth is truth. Of course there are individuals who can use their art.
But those are individuals. It’s the mass we are talking about (yes, the 99%).

(Too often, those that can’t tap into the “mystical Chi” aspect find it easier to “explode the myth” than make the effort to attain it for themselves.. sort of the “if i can’t have it, neither can you” syndrome… but, i say.. “Live and let Live”.. Unless, of course, the Tao has appointed someone as its official spokes-person, uniquely qualified to direct the rest of us in the appropriate interpretation of Tai Chi..)
If you are trying to infer what I think, come find out for yourself. We are not simple brawlers.

I have more say to you but once again time is against me. I’ll continue later

Peace

Maoshan

78

maoshan

Greetings..

Self-appointed thread dictators are a dime a dozen.. this thread, as i understand it (not as i tell you it is), is for Tai Chi players to share experiences, concepts, communicate and learn..

Of course this thread is about health, how healthy is someone laying in the hospital because they learned a “dance” without the application and experience (sparring) to back it up..

“Who are you talking about? I don’t know anybody like that where I’m from”.. It is apparent, from your post, that you really don’t know anyone like that..

“It’s put up or get F%$k up.
Now getting down to it, the end result, on a basic level, of all this training is too able to fight.”… My understanding differs, as i see it fighting is just ONE aspect of Tai Chi.. but, if that’s the limits you’re willing to set for yourself, so be it.. For me, Tai Chi is about living life at its fullest, free from the bonds of fear.. and, yes, fighting is essential to enable one to live at that level, but.. i think its a lot more than that simplistic approach…

Maoshan, do an ego check, why the aggressive language and supremist attitude? If you need a forum where people only agree with you, i suggest you start a new thread, or a new site.. but, i would hope your training would have helped you to explore tolerance and develop a spirit of sharing all the aspects of Tai Chi, not just the fighting..

Now, if i am out of line, here.. if this thread is deemed, by the participants, to only discuss fighting, i will humbly apologize and i will remove myself from the forum.. i have no need to impose my views on others, or serve my ego with confrontational challenges.. i come here only to share insights..

Be well… be real..

79

If you should be so fortunate as to be in the central Florida area (or, if we should be so fortunate as to have you visit), please contact me, i will e-mail you with my contact info.. i would be honored to meet you..

I have a few friends that live down in that area, Next year I be going to see them, So I take you up on your offer, I be honored to meet you as well.

Now, if i am out of line, here.. if this thread is deemed, by the participants, to only discuss fighting, i will humbly apologize and i will remove myself from the forum.. i have no need to impose my views on others, or serve my ego with confrontational challenges.. i come here only to share insights..

There is no need to remove yourself from this thread. Everyone has a right to their opinions and to disscuss their veiwpoints no matter what the martial aspect they practice the most. Opinion is just opinion, different insights that are disscuss. In the end of some of these many long disscussions, one will find:

NO ONE WRONG, NO ONE IS RIGHT.

Unless a person statements are mostly false and his claims(internal skills) are faulty in logic.

In speaking for myself I have no ego, that part of me die a long time ago. But I’m willing to compare my skills with other so-called internal experts of today any time. What matter to me today in the internal martial arts world, is practical methods.(real skill) bringing the proper techniques to the opponent makes the art. (practical minded individual)

ONE SHOULD BE BENEVOLENT, BUT NOT BE HUMBLE.

Peace
BT

80

Blacktaoist

Greetings..

Excellent choice of words, “benevolent”.. a signature of wisdom, by “my” accounting..

Be well..