I have a question for all of you who practice Anyone of the Internal Styles.
In particular Tai Chi. In the last thread I posted, toward the end,
Someone said some thing that really made me think.
How many of you have Chi to use your art?
and how long did it take for you to get there?
Understand, In Tai chi In particular all I have ever heard in terms of training is the slow form and Push hands, and Chi Gong. Which means you must depend on Chi to fight.
Someone hit me back on this.
Maoshan
No that is not correct. Tai Chi is practiced in the manner that it is so that one can draw focus the energy. The longer one practices, the quicker this energy can be drawn and focused.
However a practitioner can not what around in this constant state 24/7. At least not that I have seen. Therefore imagine that for some reason you are caught off guard, what are you going to do? ask your attacker to wait until you can summon & focus. Of course not, that’s why there are sound principles of combat within the system.
Does that help?
Moashan
We all have chi or we would be dead! Taiji helps to move and store, build it. It also can deplete it!!
Chi is always leaving the body even when fighting, beginners even non martial artist has chi! Are you saying that only high level martial artist use chi??? 
The chi resides in our body, make our heart pump, blood move thats why we are alive. Sorry if i missed your question!!
Well said!
But does chi go bad? Like when you get sick?
yuxiang
are u talking to me?
ive never heard of bad chi but only weak chi?!
i gots tha chi
my reply: first the background/setup
i have learned tai chi sets from 2 instructors:
the first - i learned when i was 15 years into other martial arts
i learned to mimick the class for months
i never felt this chi or had any further concept
past its generic definition
everyone else seemed to “get it” and had been training with that “sifu” for at least 3 years.
the Sifu i learned only 7 postures from (nov) showed me each move in detail from the get go…within minutes i could feel the form, even though the movements were similar to the first form of tai chi i studied, this time i Really could grasp the heat and flow of the form.
that is background, now a shot at answering the original question maoshan sifu aksed.
i could say it took me about 21 years to grasp chi, this is because i only overstood the concept upon feeling it, and it was 21 years into my practice that i could feel and use chi.
i could also say it took 7 years because it was 14 years into my practice that i started hearing of this chi, then 7 years later i learned the proper tai chi posturing mentioned above
i could also say it took 10 minutes because i felt chi 10 minutes into learning proper mechanics from a competent and detailed sifu
that could and did demonstrate the application and usage of chi in varying degrees or flavours. once i felt it i had a base to work from.
i need to monitor and gather chi levels using tai chi, ba gua, yi chuans etc regularly (ie every day, throughout the day) and i do feel that development of chi is imperative if one wishes to practice physical arts into old age and to be a formidable internal fighter, it does take a “leap of faith” to get started in chi works but its well worth it.
plain and simple. if you dont feel it you dont feel it.
adjust your posture, practice more regularly or get a sifu that can guide you properly.
word!
yi wu
Warning, repost
But it’s a good read. It seems to me that most people don’t know what chi means. If someone told you to look for something and never told you what it is, I imagine it would be rather tough to find it. Personally, I became aware of certain aspects of it from the first year and over time, other things become apparent. But what really opened up the flood gates was when I learned bagua chi kung and than my whole body was awash of it. But chi can not really be defined as any one thing. This little excerpt from our website trys to put things in perspective.
Chi Defined:
The idea of Chi is fundamental to Chinese Kung Fu and Medical thinking. However, because of its new arrival, the English language has yet to formulate a word or phrase that can adequately define its meaning. We do know that Chi is not some changeless, perpetual substance everything in the universe is composed of and defined by. Nor is it the proverbial “natural force” or “vital energy force”, for, although it is occasionally translated in that way, traditional Chinese thought does not distinguish between matter and energy. Perhaps we could say that it is energy at the point of materializing? Unfortunately, neither classical (the Wong Di Nei Jing) nor contemporary (the Shanghai Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine) medical text attempts to describe the nature of Chi as a concept. Instead, they define or perceive Chi functionally by what it does in our bodies.
The Chinese medical texts describe Chi manifesting from three sources.The first is called “Prenatal Chi”, which is transmitted from parents to their children at conception and is stored in the Kidneys. This explains why children inherit their parent’s constitution. The second is “Earth Chi”, which comes from the foods we eat. The third is “Heavenly Chi”, and is extracted from the air we breathe. These form the Chi that permeates our entire body. Chinese medical texts also describe Chi as having several variant aspects and functions. Within the body, Chi possesses five major functions responsible for the soundness of our bodies.Chi is the source of all movement, voluntary and involuntary, whether walking, thinking or aging, all depends on Chi. It is inseparable from movement and grows with it. Chi protects our bodies from the environment. Hostile influences such as illness are resisted. Chi controls change within our bodies, such as digesting foods into blood, saliva, sweat, and bile. Chi keeps things inside our bodies where they belong. Organs from sagging, fluids remaining in their place, and prevents loss. Chi warms the body. If you doubt this, just touch a dead one.
Chi also has five primary types associated with specific actions within our bodies:
Organ Chi - Chinese Medicine states that every organ has the same Chi, yet each performs differently depending on the nature of its Chi.
Meridian Chi - Meridians are the pathways through which Chi travels to the various body parts adjusting and balancing their activities.
Nutritive Chi - This Chi is associated with our blood. It travels within our bloodstream transforming nutrients from our foods.
Protective Chi - This yang Chi regulates our immune system aiding in combating illness and disease.
Ancestral Chi - This Chi’s function is to regulate our breathing and heart rate.
Remember to keep in mind that this is merely an introduction to the concept and nature of Chi and its relationship to the body. Chinese medical theory does not move in a linear fashion like in the West. The whole is always present and is refined with learning over time.
chi ?
there are some good thoughts(in particular counts) on here and some not so good. If you study tai chi or other internal system and it takes longer than a year or 2 to start understanding or feeling chi on a basic level that you can feel and explain to others than something is amiss . Also it is worth mentioning that there are 3 basic levels of chi not mentioned on here (i.e skin, nerve and bone chi). All have distinct different feelings.
Chi does not go bad but does become imbalanced when you are sick. As far as applying it in fighting its not something you want to give a new student to think about, however you do want to devlelop a body mind connection(over time) so you can acces the chi on thought instead of doing chi gung for 30 - 60 minutes. We all have chi its just some have deeper awareness and ablities. As for the amount of time it takes that is reliant soley on the student as long as the material he is learning is quality stuff. Try this out. next time you do shadow boxing make believe the opponent is bigger stronger and meaner (maybe there is 2 or 3 of them) then do one of your strikes or othere techniques while the fear and adrenaline is there see if it feels any different
count
I must applaud your description of what chi is! Although I have trainined qigong for many years, and have tried to explain what chi is to many people in laymens terms, including western doctors, and scientists but could never nail down or find the exact simplified decription as you have posted above. hats off to you , did you write that?
I am the webmaster for our site Chi Kung International I can’t take credit for the writing, it is simply the way my teacher teaches and the writing is contributed by all the students in our class. We have much more stuff but I haven’t found the time to update recently. But much more is on the way.
My favorite quote that I use when people ask me “if chi is real” is
Chi warms the body, if you don’t believe me, touch a dead one!
Fiercest Tiger
First point.
Let’s not get elementary with our thinking here. O.K.?
Of course we all have Chi. It’s the fundamental force of the Universe. I’m talking about Combat Chi. from my experience,
I’ve met tai Chi practitioners who feel that all they need is the slow form and Push hands to deal with any situation. (I’ve even met Ba-Gua people like that)
Of course a good instructor makes the difference in any case. Especially one versed in good tactics.
What I’m referring to is that, in a 6mo period do you feel that you have trained long enough to defend your self against a fairly good aggressive fighter? Hell, let’s make it 2yrs. On the norm is it possible for you to have combat chi?
This is the one to debate.
My opinion is:
The tai Chi form by itself will build no chi. It’s great as a conductor, but not as a builder. Thus you have the auxiliary exercises, in particular the Qi-Gong. And at best what you get with this practice is good health. Combat requires Physical conditioning. The muscles must be worked. Without that you’ll get dropped like anyone else in a situation.
Take two people, train both of them in the same method using the slow form and push hands etc. except with one of them you employee tree methods. Do this for a year. And bring them up against each other in push hands, which do you, think would win?
Wisdom Mind
You answered the question right.
Through your previous training, you developed a reserve of Chi
That way when a competent instructor set you up, you could almost immediately feel the flow.
The point I’m Making is that most don’t have an inking about what true chi is. True, the heat or tingling feelings are some signs.
But what most put across in their conversation is that they have An Jing or Mysterious chi. on the level of empty force.
And not to dis anyone, Too few of you in this forum or in this country train that hard. Wisdom mind answered right because of the 21yrs of elapse time. Such ability, to only rely on Chi In it’s Yin extreme would take half a life time to achieve but yet most talk like they can do it right now. And if you can I’d love to see this. I make no such claim my system is balanced. I’m, striving for that end
And I’m going tom reach it. But not by fantasizing.
Maoshan
In Chinese medicine Qi is actually clearly defined as the interaction between Yin and Yang. When you talk about Organ Qi you are talking about the relationship between the substance Yin) of the organ and its metabolic functioning (Yang). When you talk about Zhen Qi, the “true” Qi of the person you are talking about the relationship between the mind (Shen) and the body (jing). When you are talking about meridian Qi you are talking about the relationship between the body exterior and interior (biao + li).
When a person dies the process is described as the seperation of Yin and Yang, not the loss of Qi. Because if Yin and Yang seperate there is no Qi. However keep in mind that the relationship betwen Yin and Yang is a process not a state. Therefore Qi can be thought of as the potential influence of these relationships. When a person bleeds they lose blood, and Qi is said to carried out of the body with it, this is because the potential of the body is leaking out.
So do you use Qi when fighting with Taiji? Obviously, its just that the more conscious awareness and physical structure are connected then the greater potential that you have to work with and so more Qi.
The crudest level is muscle level, just sweaty meat struggling because the mind does not know the body. Then there is bone level, where connections are made deep into the frame, but it is not too responsive. Then there is Qi level, where the structure begins to be able to respond quickly to changes in potential as the engagement progresses. Then there is Yi/mind level, when the thought moves the encounter is decided
count
Just checked out your website and was intrigued to find out that su yu chang studied with my shrfu shrfu Wei Xiao Tung, my shrfu is Shyun kwan Long master Wei’s closed door diciple of 8 step praying mantis. I also learned the Wu style Tai chi system from him that master Wei exchanged with Wu Ching Chen. How is su yu chang related to you ? please respond…I also practice medical qigong , gin gon tzu li gong from world famous Yen Chu Feng. I am waiting to hear form you … your freind E.D
Check your PM’s
a quick little side question
not to take away from this post, but what builds chi?
Maoshan said this…
The tai Chi form by itself will build no chi. It’s great as a conductor, but not as a builder. Thus you have the auxiliary exercises, in particular the Qi-Gong.
What type of auxiliary exercises do you mean and am I correct in assuming that you (Maoshan) think these “auxiliary exercises, in particular the Qi-Gong” are what build chi? What does everyone else think?
Just wondering.
"The tai Chi form by itself will build no chi. It’s great as a conductor, but not as a builder. "
So, the ch’i is conducted to? when doing the t’ai chi ch’uan form.
"Take two people, train both of them in the same method using the slow form and push hands etc. except with one of them you employee tree methods. Do this for a year. And bring them up against each other in push hands, which do you, think would win? "
All things being equal~since push hands nullifies the winner would be the one who was sticking to forms and pushhands
maoshan
hahaha i gave you an basic answer to a basic question?
you can get chi from good fresh food too!
i understand what you mean, what is combat chi?
what about people that are ordanary street fighters and havent trained combat chi, but still f@ck you up anyways? does a combat chi fighter fight dirtier or better than someone that doesnt have combat chi?
i really dont see your question!! sorry mate:(
ykm has internal work also, i wouldnt call it combat chi just hard training and conditioning with good skill!! i do believe in chi and feel the chi moving in the body and try and use it for healing people. combat chi is skill, has mike tyson trained long enough in chi kung to become world champ?
CHI."
Maoshan thread was about, who has Chi. Not about what is Chi?(Theories and principles or general concepts of chi) But like always people reply with post that is not what the thread is about.
Maybe Maoshan should have said who can utilize they chi in a fight. Maybe a few people then can comprehen better.
No_Know you write:
All things being equal~since push hands nullifies the winner would be the one who was sticking to forms and pushhands
In the old days Tai Chi practitiners practice body conditioning training to survie in a fight. Just practicing forms and pushhands will not manifest powerful Techniques to stop a Professional Martial art fighter or even a good street fighter.
The Traditional Chinese Kung fu masters have a saying, If you just train forms and drills and not Gong, then when you get old , all your practice will be in vain."
In my opinion to your above statement, The winner will be the Tai Chi guy who practice conditioning training. In the real World of combat, strength and endurance are necessary for effective techniques. Without body conditioning a peron will not be able to last in a fight, and if they get hit by a skill fighter thats been Condititioning training. They be good as dead."
I don’t care how much Chi intent skill or daydreaming mind intent, or projecting so-called Chi energy out in push hands or in a real fight, if the person don’t train in conditioning training, they will not survive in the real World of combat.
People need to stop Chi dreaming and get to some real hardcore traditional Kung fu training.
Peace.
spot on blackdaoist
This is what im saying! Do jujutsu or shoot fighter train chi kung? so why are they kicking most kung fu guys butts?
hard training and sparring or fullcontact fighting gives you the edge…reality fighting or sparring using edge weapons and sticks, bats, chains and bottles are gonna give you the killer instinct to live when it gets ugly.
Tai Chi Experts where was they Chi?
Thanks Fiercest tiger. Also I like your post.
Here is some thing for You Tai Chi Chi fighters go to:http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6d.htm
This guy have a article with pictures of Tai Chi Expersts getting beatdown" by Professional Muay Thai fighters.
My Question to you Tai Chi guys is? Where was these Tai Chi Expersts pushhand skills or chi power LOL."
Where was the Neutralizing skills or they explosive energy that Tai Chi is said to have to end a fight?
Bottom line if you are not training real Kung fu, you end up just like them Tai Chi Expersts, if you ever met a real Martial artists that trains old school. (Body Conditioning and Impact Training.)
Peace
