Tai chi is considered a martial arts by many,it is said that if the techniques of Tai Chi are to be used very quickly in a real situation they will be very effective as a self-defense.Of course these techniques can be done very quickly and softly if the other person isn’t moving and isn’t fighting back.
I personally do not consider Tai Chi an art of self-defense.
I can not imagine how an art with nothing but forms can be useful on street.
For any art to be useful on street you need to train and practice like a fighter through full contact sparring.
Tai Chi as far as I am concerned is just an art for practicing chi and for learning to relax, that’s why it is very good and healthy for young and elderly people.
Who here agrees ?
Anybody here bored enough to correct him?
The Poster (muy thai fighter) is correct in a sense , but only correct in that you dont see much fighting applications taugt with tai chi. It is mainly used for relaxation/stress reduction, and for internal work. You just dont see many modern tai chi fighters.
but i also think that fighting is not all that Tai chi is. The internal road is a longer road to walk and at the beginning you will lose fight confrontations. Once you get past all that fighting nonsense anyway you will find a new level of your training and then you will discover that fighting will come easy to you.
But Taichi is a fighting art and its done slowly to convey the techniques and when performed in sparring it is very fast.
but i have also seen Muy thai Boxing and it is a brutal fighting system. if i were to see a tai chi practitoner and a muy thai practitioner each with say 3 years training i would put my money on the muy thai fighter(hands down).
advance the training to over ten years and i would put my money on the muy thai fighter hands down.
advance the training to over 20 years and my money goes for the tai chi practitioner hands down.
It doesn’t have to take that long.
I have seen dedicated students under a good teacher progress very quickly.
A lot of TJQ schools I have been to tended to concentrate too much on forms and maybe some Tui Shou, with a few weapons added on.
They never took the indiviudal movements and trained them solo and made sure that the small parts were done correctly.
How many TJQ students stand regular in Zhang Zhuang for 40 minutes or more, most I ask will answer I do it while watching my favorite sitcom or similar. Or practice developing spiral energy.
Over here we got some good IMA that train & teach EVERYDAY in the park no matter what the weather is, if it rains they simply put on a raincoat, warmer clothing for snow, etc.
Same for their students, come 06:00am the whole class is assembled in the park.
Point is it can be done, majority of people simply don’t have access to a good Sifu or the dedication to make it work.
Taiji, you hit it on the head. I have heard it said, though I can’t remember where, that to PRACTICE taijiquan, requires a minimum of three rounds… the first warms you up, the second stretches you out, and then you are ready. But according to the “Classics” if you neglect the martial, you are deviating from the path, and a deviation of an inch might as well be a mile. Unfortunately, there is more T’ai Cheese in the US, and I suspect the world, than there is Taijiquan. Taijiquan is a very challenging art to get right, and effective, if you analyze it… for example, snake put out ts tongue can be a “piercing attack” the the supraclavicular notch, or maybe even a direct attack to the trachea… sounds pretty effective to me.
Interestingly enough, I have been trained in Korean Martial Art, notably Hapkido. Virtually every throw we do in Hapkido is represented somewhere in some fashion in the form.
taiji is not only form… there are fights even.
and it is very effective -…
note that taiji had shaolin influences and that people use to do flips and all of that… even now most of good chen taiji practitonner have good and strong shaolin basics, taiji synergy is probably beyond the comprehension of most of muathai practionner-
I practice, but thats about it. I am not teaching or anything like that. I may do some volunteer work at a local clinic for some people trying to get healed. I would be willing to share what little knowledge I have with you. Maybe we can do an exchange. Email me at haemukwanjang@aol.com.
Taijiquan is an effective fighting art. The form is not a technique catalog as is common in external styles, but rather a way to practice smooth movement and relaxation, not for health, but for fighting. Both are essential elements in correctly applying the concepts of Taiji. One must be relaxed to correctly adhere to forceful movement and stick to an opponent.
I’ve done Taiji connection drills where the opponent punches at you and you must quickly adhere to their attack and deliver a counter attack. The problem with sparring in Taiji is that to apply the skills in “real time” would mean serious injury to a sparring partner. Sparring in external styles takes on a boxing format, which can be more controlled. Come to think of it, even this type of sparring is somewhat unrealistic, because punches and kicks cannot be delivered full force without serious injury to the opponent. Unless you both wear a lot of protective gear, which adds another layer of unrealism to the situation.
Taiji martial applications require a quick and explosive application of movement and force. Just the other night I was cautioned by my Shifu while practicing. The movement I was applying could easily break my opponents arm he said. He asked me to slow it down a bit to prevent an accidental injury to my partner.
I agree that it’s hard to street test yourself in a training environment. But you do the best you can do.
On another note, I think too many martial artists train in hopes of finding a street fight. I think we should all avoid getting into fights. Too many egos and too much bravado.
Honestly, most fights can be avoided with humility and common sense. Other times, like being robbed, just give them the money and avoid getting shot or stabbed.
I’ve done Taiji connection drills where the opponent punches at you and you must quickly adhere to their attack and deliver a counter attack. The problem with sparring in Taiji is that to apply the skills in “real time” would mean serious injury to a sparring partner. Sparring in external styles takes on a boxing format, which can be more controlled. Come to think of it, even this type of sparring is somewhat unrealistic, because punches and kicks cannot be delivered full force without serious injury to the opponent. Unless you both wear a lot of protective gear, which adds another layer of unrealism to the situation.
Any "real time" sparring with a partner is better then "just" solo practice.. You can still better refine your techniques, and see what applications, from each movement,
would be better to to use, in one of the many self defense situations, that “may” happen.
This is from my own experence.
The real self-defense of Tai Chi comes from each movement of the form…applications come from each movement. I do practice the form, but I also practice each movement (Ward Off, Roll back.. ECT.) by themselves over and over again.
I,myself, find it very helpful to practice each movement, to defend against differnt attacks, ether in solo practice or against a partner.
From my own experence, every style of Martial Art has its own strengths and weaknesses.
Be Happy today.
8gates has spanked the correct and stolen its girlfriend.
RE: “The real self-defense of Tai Chi comes from each movement of the form…applications come from each movement. I do practice the form, but I also practice each movement (Ward Off, Roll back.. ECT.) by themselves over and over again.”. This is one of THE best practices one can do to gain real functional ability with Taijiquan. However, I’d suggest going further…try exploring each posture. What I mean is, play a little game of spotting the applications with it. See how many ways the movement might be useful in as many different contexts as possible. Next (and this is what separates the men from the boys), troubleshoot it. Find out not if, but where, the flaws are in the movement as it applies to each given context. Find out what can go wrong and how damage control can be applied. Trust me, it’s in the development of recovery skills that true neijia fighting ability resides.
It’s kinda funny how many folks put aside their own egos when training Taiji, then turn right around and act as if the art itself had an ego that has to be assuaged. They dare not examine too closely for fear of actually seeing and exposing any possible weakness a given posture might have.
I agree with you. Understanding application is important, but above all is the development of Taiji feel. The feel can be applied to the form applications or to applications not in the form. Just understanding the form applications and executing them in an external way is not Taijiquan. The applications within the form are certainly not the only combinations available. There are a multitude of martial applications possible.
As for sparring, I agree that any sparring is better than no sparring. I was just saying that it’s hard to recreate a real-life situation in a controlled environment. In real life people get seriously hurt. You just can’t have the level of violence in a training situation.
Trust me, it’s in the development of recovery skills that true neijia fighting ability resides.
Recovery method was the core of how I was taught and it’s the same method I use to train others. It’s the key to properly structuring the training so it reflects reality in h2h fighting.
Something else I’ve been saying for years on these boards: -Instead of training for success, train for failure-
More and more IMAs people are starting to speak this language. And in doing so, some of them are about-facing from their previous stance on this idea. I’ve gotten into so many lengthy debates with sooo many people just because of this one sticking point. It really helps measure the BS when they can’t or won’t see the simple truth of this idea.
Training sound recovery method is only one of three components I incorporate into developing good basic TCC. The process stems from a foundation based on two supporting mediums.
Originally posted by Wind&Mountain if i were to see a tai chi practitoner and a muy thai practitioner each with say 3 years training i would put my money on the muy thai fighter(hands down).
advance the training to over ten years and i would put my money on the muy thai fighter hands down.
advance the training to over 20 years and my money goes for the tai chi practitioner hands down.
First, maybe. Take an “average” MT person and an “average” TJQ person who’s trained the martial applications, put them each in a self-defense situation, and I’d give pretty much the same odds to both.
Second, I disagree. As you noted, MT is brutal, and someone who’s been practicing for 10 years may well be past his/her peak and pretty beaten up physically.
Third, I agree, but mainly for the reason I stated for the second example. 20 years of dedicated MT will be pretty hard on the body.
Note: I picked a self-defense situation rather than a MT vs. TJQ ring match to level the field, since MT participants train to compete in the ring.
It has been my experience that Taiji training (ie: forms) is a tool for internalizing the “principles”.. it has been the principles that emerged in sparring/street encounters that i have been involved in.. there are variations upon variations of forms and applications, and they are all dependent on the correct foundation of principles.. actually, my external arts have benefitted from good principles of Taiji, as well.. Sometimes we get lost in the comparison of forms and details of choreography and neglect the foundation of good sound principle.. Standing meditation (ie: Wuji, Zha Zhuang, etc…), silk reeling, Taiji diagram tracing, QiGong, posture refinement, good diet, good health habits, etc… this will set the stage for good Taiji, regardless of style..
The school where i teach, Extreme Harmony Martial Arts Academy, has quite a variety of Arts, Muay Thai, JKD, Kali Escrima, Punjat Silat, Grappling/NHB, Wing Chun (my partners’ classes).. i teach Taiji, ChinNa, QiGong, and San Shou.. Sparring classes and applications classes sometimes mix styles, and Taiji holds its own pretty well.. though it is a challenge to find enough softness to neutralize the brutal hardness of the senior Muay Thai guys.. So, in response to the Topic, i find that Taiji is both a realistic self-defense AND a meditative relaxation.. it is a well-rounded system that offers much to many..
Sounds like you’ve got a gem of a training environment. I teach/train in a similar environment. I teach Baguazhang at Pat Burris’s USA Stars Foundation Judo Training Center. In addition to training Olympic Judo contestants, the school also has Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, Karate and Wing Chun. The other guys can’t quite figure me out yet. They’ll see us one time and we’re working on the extreme nuances of standing in different positions. They’ll come back later in the same class and we’re working neck breaks or knife combat. Most of 'em just scratch their widdle heads. And oh yeah, I’ve held my own successfully against all of 'em.
