Taijiquan=“supreme ultimate fist” -or boxing
What has happened to the “fist”, why is tai chi now some sort of new age health dance? Even some practitioners who claim to know the martial aspects are completly ignorant of the most basic principles. ie..fa-jing, how to use internal energy to produce tangible results! Also the true dim-mak applications within the forms!
Why is most taijquan so watered down it has lost its greatness? it was once known as the “Mother of all arts” baguazhang as the brother, and xsing-i as the sister. Now it is something old people do in the park, they put on funny panjamas and try to impress each other with bits of ancient wisdom.
The martial ability I have seen displayed in 98% of the Tajiquan people throughout the USA simply deserves to be laughed at. I am not trying to down play the healing benifits in any way, but that is only part of it. It is so common for taijiquan practictioners to take up some other art(common combo=hung-gar/taiji) to learn to defend themselves, when in reality, if one learns to use taijiquan correctly they would destroy a hung-gar person…[lol-insert sh storm here](I am speaking from expieriance!!)
Well I hope this starts some intelligent conversation and not ego driven rantings!!!
-and so endeth the sermon
Gary
“Why is it, that in humans its an abortion, but in chickens, its an omlet?” -George Carlin
Tai chi chuan isn’t dead. It just smells funny!
I guess it’s relative based on what you have been taught and what you have seen. To make general statements like “tai chi chuan is the mother of the arts” and “98 percent of practitioners are simply dancing in pajamas and deserved to be laughed at”, you will surely start a flame war. I wonder why people who say they practice internal arts only think of Tai Chi Chuan, Baguazhang or Hsing-I when there are in fact MANY other Internal Chinese Martial Arts that have been proven even better. I would rather debate about when Tai Chi Chuan became separate from kung fu at all. What is wrong with a mantis practitioner learning tai chi chuan to increase their abilities? Shouldn’t bagua training include external exercise as well as internal. Isn’t fighting external? I have been watching your debate in the Hung Gar thread for days and I can’t understand why people don’t realize that internal and external are only levels of development and not separate arts. If the point of your post is to say that there is some bad out there you will get no debate from me. But I have seen more good schools and teachers in my travels and I haven’t seen to many of these “new age hippy classes”. What’s wrong with old people or anyone practicing just for health anyway? That is the way the majority of people in China practice. I would say more people in the US that study Tai Chi Chuan are learning it as a martial art and far fewer are only in it for their health.
The translation of Taijiquan as “Supreme Ultimate Fist” is actually very sloppy and gives people the wrong idea.
In Chinese, there are the equivalent of conjunctions- words that get put together and then either stay the same or take on an entirely different meaning. The german language is great at this. For example, one word for computer sort of translates, if memory serves, to Electric adding machine…partly right but not really.
Tai Ji Quan translating the characters one by one gives you the original meaning you listed.
BUT, it is actually TAIJI QUAN. Taiji is the Yin Yang - also translated as the Grand Terminus or the concept of duality, etc…
Therefore, a closer translation is Yin/Yang Fist style or the long one…“The style of Martial ARt based upon the concepts of Yin and Yang”
This idea then applies to all movements and even to applications concepts…when he is firm, you yield…when he advances you receive, when he retreats, you advance…even in the techniques, one part moves forward, one part moves back…etc…
How can anyone hope to apply Taijiquan as a fighting art if they have not first understood the concepts involved…and the concepts lead to making the body work as a organized unit.
Take a look at people doing their form…do you see body parts not moving when other parts are? Most of the time you do. This violates basic ideas…:“One part moves, all parts move, One part stops, all parts stop” You see people then do the exact same thing in partner exercises such as Tuishou…and then what they do in fighting…Sanda…is even more removed from Taijiquan. All starts with the idea and its comprehension.
To GLW
To yield in Taiji is to invite defeat (unless your name is Yang Lu Chan of course). The purpose of Lu (roll back) is not to yield to the attacker for he will not see the the error of his ways he will just get up again and kick the crap out of you. Do not give a scum bag an even break, if someone attacks you the purpose of Lu is to yank is arm out of his socket as you rebound with a Fa-jing strike. This is done in a very small frame, where the energy of Lu is felt by the practioner and discharged to the reciever but it may appear as nothing has happened to a casual observer
If you disagree with this then I suggest you prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Get an experienced fighter to wear boxing gloves and ask him to fight you, punching you as hard as possible in the face, Lets see if you could “Yield” to a serious barrage of jabs, hooks and straight crosses. I am sorry but I feel very strongly about this cause I have heard so many Taiji practioners say they would yield to an attack, and when we have reality tested their view they realise they know very little about the powerful fighting ability of Taiji. But I must admit I do agree that Taiji no longer is a quality fighting art. Since the people who claim that to yield, do not want to think about getting their hands dirty in confronting, a mad fu.cking bastard trying to rip your head off.
They are deluding themselves that then can defend themselves.
Therefore we must conclude that 95%of Taiji taught is crap and not does not bear any relation to fighting. And it pisses me off. Well who cares I know that what I have learnt works and thats all I give a Sh.it about.
I would say that Taijiquan is healthier today than it has been for decades. Sure most Tiaji practitioners just wave their hands around, but most boxers can’t jab as well as 30 years ago and most “hard” stylists are just upper-body meatheads who flail and puff. So what, I love to watch boxing and I’m in awe of my brothers who are so willing to work up a lathering sweat. The nature of art (any art) is that it takes a lot of people going through the motions to allow the inspired few to achieve greatness.
There are more people who are practicing Taijiquan (as opposed to Taijiwu/dancing) with martial consciousness than since before WWII.
Frankly I love people who really try to hit me because they are the easiest to deal with (I’ve toyed with a boxer but my experience runs more to disabling Wing-Chun punchers). Why is that? because absorb is what you do to steal their post so you hit them with a cannon. To just talk about yeilding is to describe only half of a spiral. Yielding allows you to stick, and it takes a profoundly subtle body to hide once you are stuck. The fastest and most connected guy I touched (in this context) managed to get half of his second punch out after I’d deflected the first (which left him overextended), but then his spine was mine and the fusilade abruptly stopped. I have no fear of someone who just flings their meat at me.
Just because you’ve only ever seen “park” Taijiquan doesn’t mean the art is sick. Its like judging hockey in the NHL or WHL by going down to a local rink and sneering at the teams from the meat packing plant and the sawmill.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
what?! “MANY other internal styles proven even better than…” (count is trippin…)
Hsing-i, PaKua, and TaiChi are certainly in the mainstream respect of internal arts, but to say that there are “MANY” others that are proven even better is rather subjective of you, dont you think? Who proved them better? You? Thousands of Chinese practitioners? Thousands of US students?
Rickson Gracie? :P~
You were way off base here, and blew a chance at making your point valid. I challenge you to find more complete internal styles as compared to the 3 in question. You simply cant. I bet you cant name even 3 that are anywhere close… and you said “MANY”… 
if you understood Chinese medicine and cosmology, then you would know that
there simply isnt any comparison!
I will say that I agree with other posts so far about the lack of attention to martial detail in contemporary TaiChi… its a shame, but on the other hand, at least there are those who care enough to ‘give it a try’ to ‘improve their health’. Hey, why not…
So is it their fault that they are ignorant of the real essence of internal arts?
No, I dont think so. Its on the teachers and students of the arts to make sure they are handed over in the way they were meant.
Another point: PaKua -does- have external training. At least the way -my- teacher teaches it. I thought that was sort of strange of you to say.
And to Kevin Wallbridge:
Dude that is HILARIOUS^!@$! “I have no fear of of someone who just flings their meat at me.”
That paints the funniest picture Thanks for the laugh.
Depends entirely upon your definition of YIELD.
To yield is NOT to collapse. It can be interpretted (As I do) that it is to NOT go foce to force but rather redirect, lead to where you wish the person to go…do not fight their force but add a bit of your own to make the person do what you wish..and above all to not allow the other person to interrupt or disrupt your structure.
Sorry but yield in the sense you are talking IS bad…in the sense I am talking is more like inviting him in on your terms.
As for the rest of your post…I agree.
Yielding to a punch in the definition I give does not mean absorbing it…how foolish. It may mean intercepting it with one side of the body like an arm doing a redirecting block while attacking with the other side of the body …hopefully borrowing the power from the opponent and directing it into your attack…harder to do but it DOES work.
By the way, don’t assume. I HAVE used just these approaches in working with psychiatric patients out of control. They are fast, mean, and very dangerous, while as a technician, I could NOT damage them. The “Yield” I employed often ended up with them thrown into a wall, backwards, or immobilized on the floor or against a wall. Trust me, they WERE trying to do damage.
Also, I said nothing about confronting. Taijiquan must have active as well as passive - agressive as well as non-aggressive. At no time would I NOT take the attack if I knew the fight was there and the opportunity presented itself.
But, I also agree with you that people who think that you can do this without learning through pain and getting hit in training…and in reality…and I mean hit hard…are delusional. Fighting can be interesting but never pain free…it is also quite messy.
By the way, try to lose some of that anger. If you truly do not care about those others…let them go. There is truly nothing you can do about wimpy Taijiquan folks…they come and go.
If you teach, they will show up at your door, ask questions, and then tell you how you are not supposed to work out hard or sweat in Taijiquan…after HOW MANY years of study can they say this…
In the words of my teacher - “Don’t pursue this”
OK cagey_vet I’ll name 3
Six harmonies eight methods (Liu Ho Pa Fa)
Word Gate Boxing (Zimen)
Natural Boxing (Ziranmen)
I heard a good story at a seminar this week about a Ziranmen master, Won Ni Sen. Won I-Sen was sent to challenge Yang Cheng Fu. He went to enroll in his class but said he wanted to try it first. As soon as they touched Yang punched and Won I-Sen chopped his arm down and threw him to the ground. Supposedly even though Yang had lost, his poularity grew because he had fought with Won I-Sen who had a strong reputation.
Wah Lun Choi teaches Liu Ho Pa Fa in the US. You can read a little about his fighting record at his website.
Word gate boxing seems to by the most complete of all the internals. But hey cagey_vet, you already have your mind made up. If you are really interested, why don’t you do a little research yourself. You might find there is more out there than you thought. There are many others, would you like to start another thread. BTW, My trippin days were over probably before you were born.
If there is so much more tai chi chuan being taught for health or as dance, how come ALL the repleys to this thread are from people who seem to think they have an understanding of application and fighting? I’m sure more will follow!
¿
Taiji is based on yielding…
Yielding is getting out of the way. It is flowing out of danger so that you may crash back. I believe boxers call it “slipping” or “bobbing and weaving” depending on what they are doing.
I HAVE used it against boxers, wrestlers, and others. You ust remember that push hands is an exercise to develop the skill. It is not representative of how the skil is used in combat.
To say that you do not yield in Taiji is just as erroneous as saying you do not blast the hell out of someone. Perhaps even more so. The fighting strategy is dependant on yielding to do the following
- Not get hit
- Put yourself in position to attack an open target
- Wind yourself up so that the hit becomes an automatic release of energy.
I think that the problems come in when people assume that they should be able to do what theur teachers do. My teachers are able to use the yield as an attack. They do not need to hit back. I’m just not there. I need to counter. I do know that I can lead someone much farther than I could 2 years ago so the model holds true.
Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics
It’s not like there were armies of Taiji Quan guys running around beating the snot out everybody in old China. The fact is that there are more people practicing Taiji Quan now, for health and self defence, than at anytime in history. As long as there’s a strong interest in Taiji Quan it will survive. The rise in popularity will bring in more students, not only for the health teachers, but for those that teach it as a martial art.
I think what Gary’s getting at is almost a rhetorical lamentation on modern U.S. perception of what Taijiquan is. While practitioners of other arts may, to varying degrees, tend toward a$$-sucking in terms of viable martial skill, nobody does it better than modern American practitioners of Yang Cheng-fu Taiji. True, not all of them actually believe that Taiji is not meant to be used for fighting, but simple acknowledgment that the art can be used for fighting skill does not a martial version make. There are far too many Yin-happy fancy-pants bullsh*t artistes yielding their asses off out there. I’ve seen a better balance of Yin and Yang among Shotokan practitioners.
In all seriousness, I’d put any three-month Kali student of mine (unarmed) against literally any three-year practitioner of Yang Cheng-fu Taiji in the United States. ANY of them. That’s how much a$$ they suck. Before any propagandist decides to rebut with, “but Taiji takes ten years to fight with”, I call pre-emptive “bullsh*t”. It does not. One need not be a master to learn to save one’s own posterior, even using Taiji.
In many arts in this country, there are teachers who have never yet been in an actual fight themselves, much less real life-or-death combat. That’s neither shocking nor particularly out of sync with other countries. Still, in my experience, nowhere is that condition more true than in Yang Cheng-fu Taiji in the U.S. A larger percentage (relatively) of instructors of Taiji are women. So far, this is neither a good nor bad thing. However, statistically, women are less likely to have had fight experience than men on the whole.
For normal social concerns, this might be considered a preferred status. But we’re not talking normal social concerns, we’re talking about when normal social constraints and decorum break down and physical hostilities are involved. There may be some very good dance teachers who have never danced a step in their lives, but no one would deny that having actually gotten out on the dance floor and boogied a time or two oneself presents a definite advantage when trying to teach others, both in viability and credibility. Otherwise, it’s much akin to someone teaching driver’s ed. out of a textbook, having never actually themselves gotten around to driving a car before.
There is an intellectually dishonest and short-sighted argument to be made that these so-called buttmonkey Taiji instructors aren’t claiming to offer real combat skills to their students, so no fraud is being perpetrated. That ignores the fact that Taiji is a combat art, first and foremost! One might argue that there are some good teachers out there, in various arts, who have never actually “had to use their skills” before. Groovy. All right. But how does anyone actually KNOW that what they are teaching is valid in real combat? Someone, perhaps one of their students, has to have actually used it him/herself in a real encounter. Until then, one can’t truly be sure.
Before victims of America’s simplistic bipolar extremism argument culture get their panties in a bunch…NO…I’m not advocating getting into fights just to lend credibility to one’s teaching status. I hate thuggery no matter who perpetrates it. However, unless one is very clear that one is offering skills in sport or cultural pursuits with no claims of viability in real combat, it is ethically questionable to engender the trust of students to a degree that they rely on one’s teaching for their or their children’s very lives in a real attack without having personally used such skill oneself.
My advice to those who haven’t had ANY combat experience themselves? Stay a student. But Chris, what about people you meet whom you want to have your knowledge and skills? Become their Sigung and send them along to your teacher.
Bottom line…I have no sympathy for the wimps and limp-dingled flakes who are misrepresenting a really great combat art and promulgating and multiplying their own ignorance. Find out what the hell you are studying, people. It’s not as if the information isn’t out there. And stop wearing multi-colored shiny satin Mandarin pajamas. You look ridiculous to those of us who know what Taiji is.
[This message was edited by Chris McKinley on 04-20-01 at 12:41 AM.]
B]However, unless one is very clear that one is offering skills in sport or cultural pursuits with no claims of viability in real combat, it is ethically questionable to engender the trust of students to a degree that they rely on one’s teaching for their or their children’s very lives in a real attack without having personally used such skill oneself.[/B]
I couldn’t agree more.
I also am so sick of taiji’s superiority complex. If I hear one more time that “taji doesn’t compete in full contact tournaments because we’re above all that” I think I’ll puke. When they talk about “investing in loss” I sometimes wonder if they’re talking about losing their lives. If so it’s a pretty accurate statement.
other internal arts
Ok, I can buy Liu He Ba Fa as being close.
The other 2 I am not so sure of.
Are you sure your tripping days are over? 
“In all seriousness, I’d put any three-month Kali student of mine (unarmed) against literally any three-year practitioner of Yang Cheng-fu Taiji in the United States. ANY of them.”
I sure hope you’re exaggerating. Are you slamming Yang Cheng-fu tai chi, the people in the US, or both?
Chris does not exaggerate
Mr. Nemo,
Chris is not exaggerating at all!! And Im sure he is slamming both, and rightfully so!
-Thanks for your input chris, Unless Nietszhe gets resorected i think that will be the most intelligent post on this thread! Also the one that holds the most truth! Amen…
Gary
“The day after tommorow is the third day of the rest of your life” -George Carlin
Regards to yielding, listen I realise you guys are sincere in your belief. But I have yet to meet a taiji practioner who can diffuse my attack with yielding. therefore I cannot take what people say through writing it has to be demonstated and unless any of you live in the UK or planning to visit the UK then drop in on me and we can see if the yielding you believe in works. Perhaps I did not clarify what I meant by “yielding”, I refer to redirecting a serious attackers committed, lighting fast punch. What I am saying is why bother, he will just hit you again, better to use the energy of the yield ie Lu (roll back) to damage his arm, using that roll back energy as a spring board to deck him.
Maybe we have our wires crossed cause arguing through writing about this stuff is about as effective as a chocolate fireguard. Completely bloody useless.
While I pretty much agree that Taiji should only be taught as a fighting art, I no longer really care whether or not people practice it solely for health. There are some days when I practice qigong only, and there are some days when I practice my long form solely for the health benefits. The bottom line, though, is that I learned it as a fighting art, and will teach it as a fighting art. What I do mind are those teachers who teach Taiji for fighting but teach ineffective techniques and tell their students that certain training methods and the techniques in them are for fighting when they are in fact not meant to be used that way at all. These are the people who really bug me, the ones who for instance, teach people self-defense using push hands type yielding and pushing and pulling and a few basic techniques from the form. They are the ones who will get someone hurt. Please don’t tell me that in China the push hands contests are hard contact matches, I’ve heard it before, and I’m talking about America, where many people learned these soft esoteric push hands practices complete with leaning clear over backwards to yield, which will get you kicked in the balls at least if not totally creamed. I learned to yield a different way than I have seen many do, and I know for a fact that the way I learned works remarkably well in a fight.
I agree that in the end, they will all probably come around to the more realistic and sensible Taiji styles and give up all the crap. I have met people who practiced other styles who really like some aspect of what I do, fa-jing, greater health benefits, fighting ability, whatever. They always want to learn it or add it to what they know.
And as far as Taiji’s “superiority complex,” maybe the line should be stated another way. “We try to be above all that.” How’s that? And in any case, just because Taiji fighters don’t fight in the ring doesn’t mean they don’t fight at all. I mean, I like to fight, I just don’t feel the need to do it for ego-driven reasons.
“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice
Yeah, I think we may have our wires crossed. I don’t consider yielding as redirecting as much as getting the hell out the way.
Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics
I would say that for new age hippy reasons or MA reasons, at least kung fu is adding to the culture climate in America, and not detracting.
“Deep down inside of all of us is the power to accomplish what we want to, if we’ll just stop looking elsewhere.”
Sam,
You make some good points. Perhaps I overstated my position. As to the “superiority complex” I guess I just get tired of hearing my friends call bagua a primitive art. And I think you would agree that fighting in tournaments doesn’t always have to be about ego. Instead it might be the best way for someone to gain some fighting experience. In fact, I would expect my ego to be deflated somewhat afterwards.