Yang Style of Tai Chi Chuan not Good Enough from a Martial Aspect?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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Master Ma Hong is a nineteenth generation Chen Style practitioner. He has written numerous books and articles on the subjects of Chen T’ai Chi and internal power development. According to Master Ma Hong, the Yang style of tai chi chuan has lost its martial aspects. Here are some quotes from the interview:

MH: Now, as to the T’ai Chi that is popular these days, there are two kinds: one kind is too soft.

HJ: What kind is that?

MH: I’d rather not say. If I say, people might get upset. Without my saying, people should know which kind it is. Very slow, very soft. It has lost its martial aspects. Its basis. Originally, T’ai Chi Ch’uan was a martial art.

HJ: So, in your point of view, there’s… what we do, Chen T’ai Chi, which is like the main stream, and there are also off-shoots from Chen T’ai Chi which are, in your opinion, too soft, placing more emphasis on health, holistic benefits rather than martial benefits? You are a firm believer in the martial aspects of the art?

MH:Now there are many different types of T’ai Chi which are very popular. Yang style, Wu style, Sun style, Chang style; many different types. But the character of each of these is different. Different in what way? In my opinion, there are some that tend to be too soft, and others which tend to be too hard. This is my opinion. I believe that which was taught by my teacher was just the right combination of hardness and softness. He spoke of Yin and Yang, T’ai Chi Yin Yang. He said that T’ai Chi must have hard, soft must have fast and slow, have insubstantial and substantial, open and closed. Also it must have… oh, there’s just so much…, “I, Ch’i, Li”, all of these must be combined together. That which is closed must be opened, and that which is opened must be closed. Entirely open is not good, and entirely closed is not good. (Demonstrates posture examples) Therefore I believe that which was transmitted by my teacher was more fitting to what was the original face of T’ai Chi Ch’uan.

HJ: In your opinion, as to those styles of T’ai Chi which are now very popular, why do they not fah jing in their solo forms practice?

MH:Originally, in Yang style and Wu style, they also used to practice fah jing. When Yang passed the style on to his son, they still would fah jing. But then, from the third generation on - Yang’s third generation, Wu’s second generation - they no longer practiced fah jing. After the Manchurians unified China, the nobles who practiced were unwilling to expend that kind of energy; they were interested purely in the “health” aspects of the art. So they got rid of these stricter requirements and softened everything. But the Chen style is the oldest, the most ancient. So it still contains a richness of martial content. Hsing I ch’uan is the same. Some people practice it very softly and cannot fah jing. Then there are others who practice it very hard, with a lot of strength. That just comes from different practitioners, different lineages.

Here is the link for those interested in the rest of the interview:

http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/ma.html

I like to see this Master Ma Hong mix it up with William C. C. Chen and then see what he thinks about the Yang style being too soft. While Master Ma Hong makes some valid points others are not justified IMO.

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I must say I got plenty of respect for Ma Hong.

And I feel that I agree with him that too much TCC (Yang) is too soft.

Naturally there will be the exceptions like
William C.C. Chen, but lets face it Yang is the most widely practiced style and has few people like him.

Also I need to add that too often the beijing forms are sold as Yang, and that there are harder sub-styles within Yang.

Having done a bit of both for me Chen feels more like a Martial Art, maybe it has to do with the way I was taught in both schools.

I am not saying that Yang lacks those harder elements, just that it is often misunderstood and taught wrong.

Cheers.

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Interesting. The Yang form itself does lacks Fahjing elements that the Chen style incorporates. However, Fajing is displayed in push hands which I believe was invented by Yang Lu-chang the founder of the Yang style.

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Originally posted by Empty Fist
Interesting. The Yang form itself does lacks Fahjing elements that the Chen style incorporates. However, Fajing is displayed in push hands which I believe was invented by Yang Lu-chang the founder of the Yang style.

Hmmm, interesting Chen is famous for it’s push hands and the Tui Shou tourney in Chen Village.

IMHO, ALL tjq performed at a certain level should look the same and have the same qualities.

I have seen some of our senior Yang students perform the forms with Fa-Jing and even foot stomping.

One of our newest student in the Chen class studied for 8yrs in Taiwan and his TJQ doesn’t differ much in quality and principles from ours( Fa-jing et al).

Cheers.

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Greetings..

I couldn’t help but read between the lines and hear Master Hong chanting the usual mantra.. “my style’s better than yours”.. aside from that, he’s pretty much right.. there is a pervasive “feel good” group that has gravitated to the Yang style.. However, that doesn’t diminish the potential inherent to Yang Style’s lineage.. Too few people were taught the martial applications and fewer are capable of “seeing the obvious” right in the form.. But, it’s all there.. Probably, due to lack of real martial backgrounds, many practicioners are unaware of the devastating applications in each movement.. Sometimes people pass Yang up for the more apparent applications of Chen, Bagua, Hsing I, etc.. After 15 years of Yang training and 11 years of Chen, i find both to be equally effective as Martial Arts.. admittedly, i do sprinkle liberal amounts of ChinNa into the applications, but i feel it’s appropriate, Tai Chi and ChinNa are natural partners..

Be well..

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Ma Hong is my grand-teacher so know where this comes from :slight_smile: .

Ma Hong lives a city not too far south of Beijing. What Taiji is the most popular in that region? The Yang style, particularly that of YZD. Do YZD and his grandson Yang Jun teach lots of martial arts in their seminars? Not really, its all about the form. Ma Hong would never name names, but it is clear to me that it is YZD, and the wushu variants he is refering to.

I feel that you can find much more martially focussed Yang style in North America than in China, but thats a long way from Ma Hong. If someone mentioned Wm CC Chen to Ma Hong he’d say “Who?” The Chinese don’t look over here for skills to match themselves against. They are still the Middle Kingdom, after all, though it may be hard for my neighbours down in the uber-power of the USA to remember this.

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The only people I’ve ever met who openly test and teach TCC fighting method are Yang style players. Haven’t seen any Chen in the ring or on the mat yet.

oh, that’s right…TCC is a ‘killing art’. hello! :stuck_out_tongue:

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Originally posted by Shooter
The only people I’ve ever met who openly test and teach TCC fighting method are Yang style players.

Don’t know what Chen kwoon you been to, but that is not my experience.

Pls, go to Wayfarer publication site and see how few Videos and Books are available on Chen applications and so on. Than count the same for Yang style.


oh, that’s right…TCC is a ‘killing art’. hello! :stuck_out_tongue:

Don’t know why you always need to add those remarks.

What 's your Yang style again and under who did you study?

10% of all TJQ Instructors only teach the real stuff, but 90% of all TJQ students study under those.
Hmmm.

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ok, I’ll say it another way;

In my part of the world, I’ve yet to meet a Chen player (and I’ve met lots of them) who can throw down under any pushing format. I’ve yet to see or hear of a Chen player enter any kind of full-contact fighting event or compete in any open style sub-wrestling tournament.

Lots of Yang stylists are competing world-wide in various formats of full-contact fighting (san-shou/kickboxing, MMA, sub-wrestling) as a basic measure of their learning.

My “remark” is just to head off any responses which would excuse the validity of competitive fighting as a worthy avenue of pursuit in advancing one’s learning.

Sorry, my lineage doesn’t matter. I was taught to walk on my own legs and let what I know stand on it’s own merits.

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So you can’t/won’t even tell me what Yang style you studied.

Your type of competitions are not the only way to judge the effectiveness of a style and with your experience I would have assumed that you would have progressed more in your views about MA/styles and so on.

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does a form having fa jing neccasarily make it more “martial”?

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Originally posted by jun_erh
does a form having fa jing neccasarily make it more “martial”?

Not neccesarily.

If this about Yang vs Chen, there are plenty of Yang styles still taught today that have Fa Jing in their forms.

If I remember correctly there are 10+ substyles withing Yang.

Cheers.

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No I’m saying why is something considered more of a martial art because it is somewhat more muscular. I thought that was the type of thinking that tai chi (and also brazilian ju jitsu) was trying to get one away from.

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Originally posted by jun_erh
No I’m saying why is something considered more of a martial art because it is somewhat more muscular.

I can’t answer that one, but I would assume it would have to do with the modern, western mindset that bigger, tougher and stronger is better.

There is a saying:

Westerners learn with their mind, Asians learn with their body.


I thought that was the type of thinking that tai chi (and also brazilian ju jitsu) was trying to get one away from.

Yes and no.

Chen was always 50/50 hard and soft, too many Yang people misinterpret softnes, relaxation and thus think that TJQ does not need strength, muscle and so on.

One thing that makes me cringe in most TJQ classes is when Sifu sez relax and the whole class go limp like bad seaweed.

Cheers.

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Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]So you can’t/won’t even tell me what Yang style you studied.

[/B]

What Yang Style? You mean like a style of a style? Yang is the style. :confused:

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Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]

What Yang Style? You mean like a style of a style? Yang is the style. :confused: [/B]

So you don’t see a diff. between YCF, CMC, Em, Guang Ping and similar.
There was recently a good article series detailing the diff. between the yang styles and training methods.

Chen has 5 recognised sub-styles.

Cheers.

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I would have assumed that you would have progressed more in your views about MA/styles and so on

I’ve always said that there are as many styles of TCC as there are players. The Chen stylists are the ones who insist on being distinct and ‘truly orthodox/authentic’. The Yang dudes I’m referring to have a background in Yang’s, as do I…that’s the only reason I refer to them as Yang stylists. I just practice Tai Chi these days. My training partners are schooled in Yang’s which I originally studied, but I guide them away from stylism asap.

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Well, firstly, there are different type of Yang style. Older form of Yang are said to contain expression of fajing. Secondly, standard Yang style may have advance form such as San Shou form or Kwai taiji form which contain more fajing that Chen cannon form.

Thirdly, Chen Man Ching developed a variation of Yang style which took focus on relaxation to extreme and his style contain no fajing in the form. However, CMC student’s student, Mario Napoli, I think, (stan Israel’s student) went to China and defeated the chen family in the push hands competition years ago.

On more serious note, my instructor practice both Chen and Chen Man Ching style. He is level two in Chen. He commented that at lower level of expertise, Chen stylist do not know how to swtich, which is probably to do with lesser emphasis on differentiating Yin and Yang.

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Here are some excerpts from Peter Lim’s Taijiquan Resource Page about the Yang Style

Many have said that Yang Lu Chan softened the form to suit the unfit members of the imperial court, making the art easier and less effective, focusing on health aspects because guns were making martial arts obsolete. There is no proof beyond hearsay for this conjecture. Before Yang Lu Chan entered the imperial court, his boxing was already so soft and neutralizing that it attained the name `mien quan’ (cotton fist) and we have record of a bout where Yang’s skill was questioned because his form was so soft, a bout which he won.

Being in the Imperial Court as a martial arts instructor, it was imperative to turn out students of high attainment. It was literally a matter of life and death since with withholding anything from the Royal family was considered treason. Rather than causing the Yang art to be diluted, it probably added a lot more in terms of content due to the opportunity to meet and compare skills with other highly skilled martial artist in the imperial court at that time.

The Old Yang Form differs only on details with the standardized Yang Form of Yang Cheng Fu. One needs to note that Yang Cheng Fu himself did not standardize the form. Its just that he spread the form so widely that his method of doing the form became the accepted standard.

The Old Yang Form retains the ‘strength explosions’ (Fa-Jing) and jumping kicks (one only). We know that the sequence of the Old Yang Form and the standardized Yang Form is almost the same. From the old manual of Wu Yu Xiang also records a very similar sequence.

When Yang Cheng Fu began to teach in public classes he taught them from the basics. He removed the strength explosions (Fa-Chin) and replaced them with using qi to extend the limb instead. This is a basic practice which teaches one to bring qi to power the limb, only after this has been achieved can strength explosions (Fa-Chin) be done properly. He also smoothed out the form to emphasize flow, rootedness and relaxation which is primary to the art. Only after the flow, rootedness and relaxation are mastered can changes in speed take place without losing these qualities. These speed changes are evident in Yang Chen Fu’s Taiji Long Boxing as well as Yang Shao Hou’s small frame.

Other than a few minor variations, his form remained much the same as the Later Yang Form. Yang Cheng Fu travelled extensively throughout China promoting his art. Taijiquan was already well known at that time as a combat art with great curative powers. Its mode of practice enabled both old and infirmed to take up the art to better their health. Yang Cheng Fu himself was undefeated and was a great boxer, his reputation and ability caused the art to spread far and wide and made it what it is today: the most popular form of Taijiquan in the world.

The great popularity of his form and the huge numbers of people who took it up caused it to become the standard form for Yang Taijiquan. There are those who still practiced the older forms but Yang Cheng Fu’s form became the hallmark of the style. Yang Cheng Fu taught and promoted his art as a combat art. There is little evidence other than conjecture that he promoted his art solely as a health art. Both his books focus on the art as a combat art and his writings all dealt with the practice towards achieving a combative goal. In practicing the art as a combat art, one gained the health benefits as well, both aspects of the art being inseparable.

Here is the link if anybody is interested:

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg4.htm

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Empty Fist.

Thanks for the info, read the link years ago.
Not sure about how much value I should put into those old Histories.

For a long time Chen Small Frame (my style) was considered as having gotten rid of the difficult movements like Fah-Jing, jumps and so on.
When in reality they are still there and we have a few movements lacking from the large(new) frame which I think was derived from the small frame.

Personally, I don’t give to much value to what people tell me about TJQ unless it is the same as I hear coming from the sources (Chen Village, Yang Family, etc).

I have heard many TALL stories when it comes to TJQ and most of them are lets say … cough bull cough sh`t cough.

Cheers.