Someone said the other day- ‘‘Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.’’
what are your opinions to this?
In some ways yes-
Yang Lu chan did simplify his chen taiji knowledge for the royal family in Beijing because of its stomping, jumping, low stances, ect. He changed it into a more softer and continual form with the change in tempo and fajing.
some ways no-
availability- yang taiji is more established and is more well known, while there are few and far between chen style masters teaching. some taiji people can only find a yang teacher and are happy with that.
Strongly disagree. The fact that Yang was called Wu Di was not because Yangs art was less effective than Chen or any other art, but rather because it was supreme. Perhaps it could be argued that this had more to do with the man than the art, but I think Yang Style is not the art in combat that many see in form practice; therein lies the difference between this and Chen. You cannot feel significant Qi flow when doing fast movements and forms, this is why Yang Style is slow and flowing and not because it is weak and ineffective.
'Soft as water externally, hard as an iron bar internally"
Personally I tend to agree with this. I have noticed that lately, the Yangers are busy quibbling over lineage and energetics, and not doing much fighting. It all comes down to effectiveness in reality, and I have yet to see a Yanger beat a Chen stylist in a fight, at least in my town.
How close is your teacher in lineage to the supreme Yang family members?
How close in lineage is your teacher to the supreme chen family members?
How good is your teachers skill?
How hard do you train and how good is your skill?
I have done chen stlye and yang style and I like them both . My chen teacher said he has a chen style student who is 70 years old and goes into a low stace as low as the floor. I have heard that the spiral energy is more obvious to the beginner when they start out in chen style. I like both styles and both improve health and cultivate qi. Personally , I learn chen in hopes of acheiving one day " high level skill" , but I used to do yang style and that was also my goal, so again it probably has more to do with you yourself and your instructor’s skill. Alot of Yang style doesn’t have alot of fajin , but some do. I haven’t seen a Yang style “cannon fist form” though . Does anyone know a Yang style with cannon fist moves? Maybe it’s integrated as one form . I don’t know really , they’re both good , and really they’re the same thing. The chen style seems to have more standard bearers and higher standards for proficiency. It also seems to be less polluted by popularity as most taiji charlatans will most likely rip-off yang style
Originally posted by Syd
[B]Strongly disagree. The fact that Yang was called Wu Di was not because Yangs art was less effective than Chen or any other art, but rather because it was supreme.
“WAS” is the key word here. As things are being practiced today, Yang is not faring well. Can anyone tell me about a Yang school that does full contact free sparring, and regularly faces up to other styles?
Perhaps it could be argued that this had more to do with the man than the art,
Bingo!
You cannot feel significant Qi flow when doing fast movements and forms,
That’s absurd. It’s smooth flow that allows Chen to go from slow to fast in an instant.
“Can anyone tell me about a Yang school that does full contact free sparring, and regularly faces up to other styles?”
Yes–my school, the Great River Taoist Center. My teacher is Scott Rodell, and he’s never done any Chen style, only Yang, and he can fight. We practice full-contact sanshou (not the sport sanshou, just as in “free hands”). A 2-year Krav Maga student just came to our sanshou class. He did not fare too well (especially against the older students).
This whole Yang vs. Chen thing is stupid. Just train.
I won’t be drawn on the one thing vs another thing diatribe. If your calling Yang Style into question based on this argument then good luck to you. We will have to agree to disagree… whats new?
Can anyone tell me about a Yang school that does full contact free sparring, and regularly faces up to other styles?
I think various people are involved in Taijiquan for varying reasons. Most who want Taiji for self defence are smart enough to avoid fighting; that doesn’t mean they couldn’t effectively defend themselves. Some Yangers I know spar and some don’t; most Yangers I know don’t full conact spar because most of the movements (Yep here we go…) would do pretty serious harm to the opponent such as arm breaks, knee breaks, shots to the corotid sinus etc. I personally train and spar with a couple of guys in my system but we don’t go all out for the above reasons. If you can show me video footage of full contact Taijiquan using the applications with people surviving hospitalisation I’d love to see it.
Originally posted by Syd
JohnCain,
don’t full conact spar because most of the movements (Yep here we go…) would do pretty serious harm to the opponent such as arm breaks, knee breaks, shots to the corotid sinus etc. I personally train and spar with a couple of guys in my system but we don’t go all out for the above reasons.
I heard a guy say almost the exact same thing right before a MMA/BJJ guy handed his butt back to him.
If you can show me video footage of full contact Taijiquan using the applications with people surviving hospitalisation I’d love to see it.
I’ll ask my teacher if I can do just that after the holidays…
I heard a guy say almost the exact same thing right before a MMA/BJJ guy handed his butt back to him.
Ahhh ok, your one of those guys… yeah, don’t bother. If you want to take on any of Erle’s senior students your quite welcome, I doubt they’d be interested though. Thats the difference between yourself and others…
If we were face to face you would se that I’m coming from a friendly spot here… Perhaps I should have put more effort into making my post sound nicer. **** internet. No microexpresions or body laguage to go with the words.
I am not one of “those guys”, Syd. I’m a IMA purist, but I will never disregard other systems that can get things done. The fact of the matter is that the MMA/BJJ crowd is mopping the floor with most TMA/CMA fighters. They have, and give proof of thier prowess quite regularly in tourneys and videotaped challenges. But unfortunately nobody in the TMA/CMA community have presented anything publicly that shows that they can handle groundfighters. Except excuses.
That said, I am personally nowhere near being in good fighting condition, but that certainly does not disqualify me from pointing out those who are.
My last word on this; Most of the Taijiquan fighters I know are not interested in ring sports or fighting as sport. I have respect for BJJ and groundfighting and train in various groundfighting and Chin Na methods as a supplement to my own standard application work.
I think a difference may be where perhaps some of the Taiji community is coming from philsophically as opposed to the attitude and philosophy of BJJ. Personally I am not particulalry interested in entering a ring and having it out with other MA’s because there are rules within those circumstances that prevent most of the prime techniques and applications ,within my system at least, to be used. Essentially rendering what I do pretty obselete.
Eye jabs, throat shots, temple shots, etc etc etc… are all out the door.
Now this may sound like a cop out but at the end of the day if I wanted to fight tournament style then I would surely become a wrestler or involve myself in other MA’s that have a more sport oriented competition based structure. The only reason I have learned Taijiquan Martially is to protect myself if my life depends on it. I have no doubt that I might then be able to employ the techniques I train in without hinderance or the presumption of rules etc.
Again, I respect many different MA’s but I think my purpose in Martial Arts isn’t the same as perhaps those within other arts like BJJ. My entire raison d’etre is not to prove myself to others but rather to train as best I can and in techniques which are lethal and final and dedicated to ending a fight as quickly as possible. Infact my whole purpose within Taiji is so that I don’t have to fight and if I can avoid it and run first? You bet I would do all I could to avoid getting to the point where I have to become a temporary animal to survive.
Sure I might get my arse handed to me but I wouldn’t go down without the other guy being disfigured for life… bet on that. Ofcourse I hope it never comes to that but I think most Martial Artists are the kind of people who actually avoid conflict rather than seek it out unless they are interested in combat as a form of competative sport like boxing, wrestling etc etc etc.
Most Taiji people just aren’t interested in this kind of thing.
It sounds like a cop out. How can someone crippled for life hand you your arse? Double K.O ? Does “old yang fighting style” have pao chui cannon fist form? I’ve seen an “old yang” form that has 6 empty hand sections , including xingyi , and bagua sections and doing them all together takes a very long time, I actually didn’t learn it though. Just cheng man ching form, push hands , and fajin for taiji, also straight sword.
Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain
[B]
“WAS” is the key word here. As things are being practiced today, Yang is not faring well. Can anyone tell me about a Yang school that does full contact free sparring, and regularly faces up to other styles?
Bingo!
That’s absurd. It’s smooth flow that allows Chen to go from slow to fast in an instant. [/B]
I can’t speak for anyone else, but from a martial standpoint my Yang resembles Chen pretty close. As far as full contact goes, yea we wear a lot of pads and we leave are feet often……this will make sense to he that knows Taijiquan
Facing other styles? Yea, and I’ve been sued too. (for property damage…of all things …long story….) Yes, have done shoot fighting using what I know. I found it a great sport to polish some shui and tou skills. However, from a self-defense standpoint, I found the sport to contribute to some practices un-conducive to one’s overall self-defense preparedness.
‘‘Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.’’
I’d say yes and no. I can see how Chen’s form work could be too hard on the body for some people, and Yang Cheng Fu’s form would be easier to practice. I think Sun’s form is even easier on the bod then YCF’s form though.
When it comes to fighting though, can’t really say which is better. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of too many Taiji groups of any style that have put out quality fighters in a sports arena. William C.C. Chen(Cheng Man Ching Taiji-a YCF offshoot) is one, and I think a member of one of these forums is a San Shou competitor that does Wudang taiji(the group that branched off of wu style?)
But it isn’t, it’s just the way things are. If you want to fight in the ring, off ya go, but I’ve got no use for it.
How can someone crippled for life hand you your arse? Double K.O ?
It’s just my way of saying I wouldn’t go down without letting the bugger know they were in one, thats all. You think a person always puts someone down without sustaining injury to themselves also? Anything and everything is possible…
‘‘Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.’’
All the Yangers I know have no interest in learning Chen; they don’t discuss Chen because it’s not relevant, not because they can’t do it. The above statement is ignorant. You choose an art and you do it because you want to, not because you can’t do something else.
What about Yang style with pao chui? Do you know old yang style cannon fist? What does it look like? I learned the first quarter or so of chen style cannon fist. Does anyone know guang ping yang style? Does it have cannon fist?
I practice Old Yang Style which is totally different from the Cheng Fu forms in terms of intent and martial application. It is allot closer to the Chen style than it is most anything else. There are leaping kicks, explosive expressions of fajin, stamping the ground and silk reeling etc. This is what I think of when I am talking about Yang Style… not Cheng Fu’s art.
The only thing we perform that is called Pau Chui is the Small and Large San Sau. I just wish the Taijiquan community could get beyond the disharmony of Styles and look to the unifying elements. We’re all part of the same family art. If a Wu stylist or some other style went up against another art and won tomorrow, do you think other Taiji stylists wouldn’t claim it a victory for Taijiquan and stop caring about the division on arts?
Chen, Wu, Yang, Hao, Sun, Li… they are all great, just different.
