Hi Fellas,
Appart from Yau Kung Mun what other Internal art forms are designed for close range clinch, takedowns and grappling?
FT
I have never heard of Yao Kung Mun until now but out of the three classic Nejia arts i have trained in two (Hsing-i and Tai Chi.) Even from what I have seen and heard about Bagua I would say that all three contain methods for dealing with the clinch/takedowns/ and grappling. There are tons of throws as well as close range sensitivity work for dealing with the clinch and grappling as well as striking with the body (Head/shoulder/hip etc) in close quarters.
Whether someone emphasizes this in their practice and views training these as a goal is a whole different question.
I’d have to agree with Palmer… I’ve trained in Liu He Ba Fa, Xing Yi, and Bagua… all three have what you’re asking about… it’s just a matter of what range you’re in.
Wu Chien-ch’uan style T’ai Chi Ch’uan.
We train throws, footsweeps, locks, breaks and groundfighting strategies in addition to more conventional strikes and kicks.
“The floor is your friend, it will always be there for you.”
“Why should I hit somebody with my fist when I can hit them with the floor?”
Scholar,
I am also a Wu stylist (well try to be) over in the UK (www.cotswoldwu.co.uk). I just wondered what methods you had in mind. I only know of a few application that can be done from the ground. Do you guys do specific ground fighting training?
Many thanks for any info
K
You can PM me if you like
Hi Kuanti,
I’ve been a student of Sifu Eddie Wu since 1992, and had started training Wu style T’ai Chi with one of his senior students 5 years before that. I correspond occasionally with Tim Price Sitai in Oxfordshire, you probably know him.
The groundwork we get into is something that is usually only done after about 5 years of pushing hands (unless the student is younger that 25 or so, then it is safe to start earlier), and then only with “volunteers” crazy enough to want to endure the suffering involved in the full martial education process. First, the student has to learn to fall from any direction without being hurt. At this point, the first three throws are introduced: White Crane, Repulse Monkey and Single Lotus, and then the counters to these throws. Then, we learn to fall from various heights; from chairs, tables, over chairs, tables, etc., as well as incorporating takedowns and locks into freestyle pushing hands. Then it is safe to start working more complicated and combination throws. Snake Creeps Down, Needle at Sea Bottom, Double Lotus. Also, catching punches and kicks in midair as we jump to dislocate the opponent’s joints; following an opponent who has fallen or has jumped out of the way by tumbling, righting ourselves in a hurry, and using those principles in attacking from the ground. Then mixing those application principles in single and multiple opponent and weapons strategy scenarios.
As you can see, it is a very involved study. The Wu family have been justly famous for a deep and sophisticated knowledge of how to apply soft principles and acceleration into wrestling and groundfighting, and we are fortunate to be able to learn from them, I’d say. These are things that are trained routinely in our Asian and North American schools, and I’m sure Sifu will introduce these things to the relatively younger UK branches when the time is right.
My Tai Sihing has a new website at www.wustyledetroit.com that may interest you.
Cheers!
Great Replies Guys
I teach all ranges although YKM internal forms are purely clinch, throws and Grappling submissions. We do hands and legs on pads and then move into the stand up wrestling, joint locks and leg sweeps etc.
We leave the ground fighting untill the students are godo at stand up fighting which include the above.
How much time do you guys do on the floor and how well do u think you could go against BJJ floor?
FT
I don’t want this to turn into a “I’m better than them” kind of thing, so I can only speak generally about strategies. There will always be someone better than me out there, after all…
The philosophy on the subject of opponents is that I don’t care what style they do. They aren’t a style, they are arms, legs, heads, and torsos. We train to get into the mindset that they aren’t better than us, they aren’t worse than us, they are exactly the same; human. Our mantra is: “Not overconfident, not underconfident. Confident.”
I’m probably not going to know a person’s style if I am going to really fight them. I am however going to do my best to get to an area they aren’t comfortable with. Every situation is different, and our training is to help us stay comfortable in the most extreme of worst case scenarios. I’ve been trained with that mindset for two decades now, and I’ve been interested in the martial since day one. We train and train and train at all ranges, short, medium and long. If I meet someone whose training is more complete than mine, who can cover their posterior better than I can, then I’m in trouble. If they can’t, then they are in trouble.
Sholar
Who is talking who is better? Im asking who does what and how you train, im after some info on Internal arts with grappling and clinch work, how you train it. I think the internal arts are the key thats all.
The person is the style!
FT
Hello Fiercest Tiger,
From what I know, the Tian Style Yin Yang Bagua Zhang based most of the physical techniques on twisting, grappling and breaking joints, to the degree that virtually every moves involves breaking something. But very, very few people know the system properly and even less teaching it out. Although I find it one of the most effective systems, I didn’t want to learn it because I find it too “violent”.
(yes, I’m a softie ;-))
Cheers,
John
Really? wow you guy’s in Tronto must me a serious cut above the Detroit branch because I’ve never seen nothing but sandles shorts and Hawaiian print shirts at the Church.
Fighting at close range is E-Chuan’s specialty. I just had a victory Sun. … submitted with strikes (6 seconds) and a big part of that is because after I countered the guys lead jab he tried for my leg and I lit him up with short-range uppercuts.
It happened fast, but he had his bell rung already and that .05 second that he goes for my leg/hip I landed on his chin/neck.
Well, I’ve known Taisihing for years. He is very conservative, he doesn’t allow shorts, or sandals (or baseball hats or gum chewing), for training. At intermediate level almost everyone has the club’s shirts. Also, you must never have trained in disciple’s classes if you’ve never seen the martial. PM me if you want to know who I am.
I’m sorry, it was me who wanted to avoid implying that I thought what we did was better than BJJ or any other art, I didn’t see anything wrong with your question. “The person is the style!” is quite true, and my response is that we train to fight people, not styles.
You’re being too politically correct. How do you train to fight individuals? You have a blue print for every fighter in the world? Their tendencies?
I train to fight the MMA … how to take care of the shoot, how to handle the Thai kick, good punching. I can tell when I’m fighting a Thai Boxer by his guard or tendencies. Of course, each person’s flavor is there own, but you have to know what technique is out there and how to beat it.
I also have no qualms in saying some styles are more geared for turning out effective fighters and that BJJ is my sworn enemy 
… they made it this way, not me.
Really, I was there for three weeks. Seen lots of shorts and sandals. I stopped going because I didn’t see anything that was remotely martial. A lot of form work, little martial content (and bad chin-na) Yes, I didn’t attend a disciple class that was for disciples (close door stuff…always leaves me suspicious…) But that’s who was mainly wearing the shorts and sandals as I was leaving. Usually people changed before entering the church gym. Given the lack of mats, and sparring equipment I thought it was best to move on. I’ts not like I don’t know what I’m looking for.
I’m trying to be fare… I’m just reporting what I experienced and not trying to slander anyone.
Maybe if someone gets deeper into it the training it picks up? Is that what your saying?
3 weeks? That explains it. Of course you didn’t see any martial art, you never left beginner’s class. New people are only going to be shown walking, a couple of warm ups and maybe about 10 of the first forms after 3 weeks. I’m sorry that you didn’t enjoy what you got, but the syllabus we present isn’t for everybody.
As Wu Chien-ch’uan wrote almost 100 years ago:
“If beginners can comprehend the truth in this theory and manage to avoid the use of brute force, they will find it easier to learn the training routines and will not easily tire of them, even though the path to learning them correctly seems repetitive and ‘taste-less’.”
Closed door classes are the way T’ai Chi Ch’uan was taught for hundreds of years. That is the way the Wu family teaches, so that is the way Steve Taisihing and myself both were taught by them to teach. Before I am going to teach someone how to fight with our stuff, I have to have thoroughly evaluated them, physically and mentally, for their own safety and for the safety of the other students. There has to be an understanding that the teaching is for a specific purpose at a specific time or forget it.
Learning the entire form is the first test. If you can get through the form, then pushing hands. After you have been positively evaluated on your push hands, then it is safe to train the martial. At that point, if someone has been deemed reliable, they will be asked to join the discipleship. Aggressive, violence prone people don’t usually get past the pushing hands, as they can’t relax themselves enough to neutralise well. You don’t have to join the discipleship to train with us, but we don’t have to show you any martial art, either. Why should we?
The mats (and impact bags and spears) at Taisihing’s school are stored up on the little stage behind the dividers. We usually don’t break beginner’s arms when demonstrating locking, so I’m sorry you were disappointed. We will sometimes set up a lock when working on a particular form with a beginner and then stop, just to show the potential. Perhaps that is what confused you. Also, you have to make a distinction between what some people wear to class and what they train in. Taisihing is the strictest teacher in our system on the issue of no shorts, no bare feet or sandals in class. If a beginner comes in that way, they won’t be sent home, but it will be mentioned.
Taisihing is a fully accredited Sifu with his own disciples, the first Westerner to be so designated by the Wu family. He has had to be evaluated himself by Sifu Eddie Wu, his uncles Wu Ta-chi and Wu Ta-hsin, his auntie Wu Yan-hsia, as well as being presented to and approved by the generation previous to them: Wu Kung-tsao, Wu Ying-hua and Ma Yueh-liang. They all approved him as a Wu style teacher, and Wu Yan-hsia, Wu Ta-hsin and Sifu Eddie approved him as a Wu style Sifu. So, with that kind of recommendation, it is a safe bet that “if someone gets deeper into it the training it picks up.” First, though, you have to actually get deeper into the training.
You’re killing me. I’ve met some pretty aggressive MMA guys, too. Toughman contest guys. I’ve also known a few bikers who could take any of them out in a matter of seconds, because of where they were trained, although they wouldn’t consider it training, I guess…
There is a blueprint for every fighter in the world. Four limbs, head and torso, and the joints that hold it all together. There are just so many ways that combination can move. Some ways that it moves won’t damage it, some ways that it can move will damage it. By learning to use T’ai Chi’s “four ounces” at the right time, we train to damage it a lot. 
At the risk of sounding like Bruce Lee (like his technique, he mixed and matched his philosophy from outside sources, too), you can be limited by expecting someone to do something a certain way. Suppose they do something different? Anyone who has worked with psych patients (or retail, LOL) can tell you people are very unpredictable. So, we train to stay mobile, protect our centerline, neutralise attacks, create openings and strike really freakin’ hard when the time is right. This shouldn’t be unique to T’ai Chi at all, most of the Chinese martial arts I know about train (or used to train) some version of this doctrine. We train to stay as effective as we can in every conceivable extension and direction. Taking and delivering attacks all the way forward, all the way backwards, to the sides and everything in between. This results in the famous “lean” of Wu style. I’m not necessarily going to fight that extended, but if I have to reach or move out of the way, I want to be more comfortable than the other guy while I’m doing it. If I can take my defense and offense to a place they haven’t trained for, maybe I can surprise them. This shows up well in weapons sparring, where exceptional stability in extreme ranges of motion can help you keep all your limbs! The good Hsing-i and Pa Kua that I’ve seen trains in these ranges, too.
We should let your words stand-alone and finish the day.
For not wanting to be disrespectful to the Wu family I would like end this dialog (at least about this subject)
Scholar, I liked your two last posts. And yes, we train our ability a lot, to take the range of punching motion to the maximum. For example, in Ba Gua, can you face the 12 o’clock position, but strike at the 9:00 o’clock position with your right hand, with power, without turning the body or waist at all.
This kind of thing. I’m sure you know how it is. And you’re right, the real Tai Chi only goes to one guy … the heir. Forget even closed door students, never mind someone walking in off the street.