When practicing at home is there any preference to the order in which you practice. I mean, should I practice Taiji before my CLF or vice versa. Well reasoned arguments only please.
Fu-Pow
Curious Question
I have always thought that practicing external while at the same time practicing internal (if your main training focus was internal) would be counter productive for internal training. That is, external training is counter productive for the internal practioner.
Anyone else have some imput here?
There is no spoon. “The Matrix”
There’s a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. “The Matrix”
The way the body moves in an internal art and external art are different and because of that, you can easily develop bad habits for one or the other.
An example is this:
You are standing in a left forward stance and you want to move into a right forward stance by moving the right leg forward.
In an external art (this will be a generalization) you will put pressure on the front leg, using strength to push yourself up and and then shifting the body weight forward coming down on the leg that was previously in the back.
In taiji, we use the principles of relaxation to do this. We are standing in a left forward stance and we relax the back right knee causing us to shift the body weight backwards. Now we pivot the left (front) foot 45 deg to the left, so it would be facing the front-left-corner from where our body is positioned. Then we relax the left knee, and draw our back foot forward, and when done properly the body does not raise or bounce up and we bring the leg through to the front stance, leading the body with the shoulder, and then turning the dantien to face forward once more.
Of course these descriptions do not do justice to seeing this type of movement in action and/or doing it yourself and learning from the way your body feels.
This is just one of many examples.
- Nexus
internal/external
I have always heard that it is safe to practice both- so many people do everyday!
Personally, I use external stance and form work before qigong and taiji, as I find this gets the blood flowing enough that the chi circulation is evident instantly in taiji form. Of course, as mentioned above, there are so many differences in combat situations, so please consult with your sifu before attempting anything funny.“
Creating a difference between the two is the problem.
Interal/external…to me its a just a fabrication.
I think that it is a fabrication to think that the differences are a fabrication.
Anyways, I just had a break through in my internal practice thats why I’m asking.
Fu-Pow
Fu-Pow, you are correct. And congratulations on the breakthrough, there will be many more to come!
- Nexus
it is quite hard to practice both internal and external arts and the same time. Both use a very different way of moving. Unless you can tell the difference between the arts, you should just focus on one; especially if you want to become good at internal arts, you should just give up on external art for now.
They are different because external uses li and internal uses yi and qi. Or you can say external artists uses the ground and internal artists become the ground. Or you can say that external artists uses muscles for strength, and internal artists uses the ground path for strength.
Do one or the other, it could be EXTREMELY counter productive, If you have to supplement your internal art with another to defend yourself then you need to find another school!
Gary
“Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong”-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com
This has been my experience.
I originally learned TC to help me understand my mantis. In the process of doing this I found that I had to give up my mantis style.
It would be years later that I would relearn it. This time my movements and understanding where heavily influenced by my TC. In the end I kept my TC and now only practice it. It has all the answers for me. It took awhile for me to see this but I know it now.
So I would say on a superficial level a person could probably do both. But what’s the point. IMHO To gain any real understanding you would have to do one or the other.
Less is better.
luck in your training
bamboo leaf
I would say do the internal last. You do the external stuff first, which gets the blood moving, the circulation going, the chi moving, and you finish with the internal to focus solely on that circulation (which helps increase it further), and to relax the body and mind. That’s my approach.
“…either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations…”
- Cannibal Ox
in/out
there’s another advantage to practicing arts in addition to your Taiji-
internal arts do not use muscle
rather, they rely on physics and energy work.
therefore they do not develop muscle,
unless you find a really exceptional teacher who can guide you back to original Yang or Chen family transmissions.
(yes, there is life beyond push hands!)
But this also depends on what you want to get out of martial arts. Practicing taiji exclusively as a fighting art is only effective if you have one of those one in a million teachers. I know dozens of dedicated taiji artists, many of whom have spent as much as 25 years on the art, and my teacher is the only one I know who can fight. Of course, he uses Bagua and Hsing-I also.
sorry for the rant
I just want to see an internal martial artist hold up against other arts. Anything you can do to help is good, as long as you maintain focus on one art.
of course, my focus is different from many peoples’ focus- I cross train in ground work and wushu just in case my “parting the wild horse’s mane” isn’t enough in real life!
But if all you want is health or meditation you may be better off with just taiji.
peaceÃ
It’s not only external vs internal, you can, for example, practice two external styles that have opposite concepts and strategies…Is it impossible, or should it be avoided at all cost? I don’t think so, it’s a matter of mindset and focus…when I do my white crane, I do things that are genuine WC, but that would make my bagua teacher scream (elbows pressed in, heavy muscular usage of the scapula for example)…then when I do bagua, I shift to the bagua mindset and move in ways that I would never do in WC…I don’t think it’s only a distinction between internal and external, it’s just a distinction between different styles and their respective orthodox methods…I do not think it is important that a certain order must be kept, as long as you are fully into your CLF when you do it and fully in you taiji when you do taiji…and frankly, I can imagine valid arguments for “internal first” and valid arguments for “external first”, and none of them is objectively and clearly a better argument than the other…do as you feel on the spot, as long as you keep both styles pure and orthodox…
Just my thoughts…
I don’t like the saying that internal arts don’t use muscle. I think it’s more like they have little (very little) muscular tension. I mean, those chen masters have a pretty developed dantien and leg area for someone who don’t use muscle.
Kumkuat almost agrees with me 
I would say that the idea that muscle isn’t used in Internal arts is a gross oversimplification. It comes from letting the wisdom stop at the first stage. You do need to cultivate a structured relaxation as a foundation for progress. This skill is called song, and when you have song the larger muscle bellies are relaxed and you hang off of the short postural muscles.
This is only stage one. Its still martial arts, so power training is the next step. In Yang style the power training is present, but largely just given lip service. Yang practitioners talk about taking individual moves and training them explosively for power, but the only teacher I know who actually seems to do this is Earle M. (I’m not a fan of all that he does, but he is surely correct that it was a part of the pre-Yang Chenfu tradition). Where it is really present in Yang style is the weapons training. The weaopns in Yang style train many “textures” of energy that come up in the full range of tuishou practice. The most important for power is the spear.
Chen style is thick with power traning exercises. From cannon fist, to power qigong, to weapons, to the use of resistance training, to deep stances. So much of the development of the solo form comes from the practice of how to dig out more power.
In my mind, gross power is what really divides external style from internal styles. This is the use of large long-fibred and superficial muscle groups, as opposed to the use of small short-fibred and deep muscle groups. To get at the deep muscles and not rely on the superficial ones is the point of the relaxation methods of Taijiquan in particular. However, once you have gone deep then there is a martial imperative to find the power that close to the bone. If two subtle and structurally connected people engage then power (and the ability to change, but thats a whole other topic) will be a deciding factor.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
Kevin-
I’ve definitely found some sort of power. It feels really thick like molasses though and I certainly can’t move it very quickly. At least not yet.
I think it is ground power. I discovered it when I “let things go” so to speak. I think it is called Peng. Some people think Peng is simply good structural alignment but I now think it is more than that. It is an expansion and contraction from the ground up.
There is still definitely muscle involved but you couldn’t really tell from watching the movement.
Some things out of the classics definitely make sense though. For example, you must go left to go right, you must go right to go left, up to go down, down to go up. And the ability to send people upward by pushing down.
Grounded-
Excellent point. I definitely want to keep training CLF if for any reason to stay in good cardiovascular and muscular shape. Plus knowing two arts gives you a greater repetoire of movements in a fighting situation. CLF as primarily a striking art. Taiji as a closer range grappling/striking art. I guess I have a lot of confidence in myself that I will not start confusing the two.
Fu-Pow
[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-02-01 at 09:29 AM.]
[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-02-01 at 09:31 AM.]
My Shrfu is constantly telling me to RELAX. I tend to want to use external power entirely too much, but that is common with people early in their training. I know personally, that if I were to mix the external with my Hsing-i, it would be detrimental. Some folks say that Hsing-i is a bit external anyway, so I could probobly really screw it up if I “cross trained”. I imagine that it differs from one person to the next, though.
“There is no try…do, or do not.”
my personal preference
I train Wado-Ryu Karate and Taiji together 4 times a week
it is always better when I train the Taiji first - the relaxation/lack of tension makes my techniques a lot better
I don’t differentiate between my arts when I’m training
i.e.
in Karate:
left side forward stance, throwing a left lead jab - I’m coiled anti-clockwise in the stance and I explode off of my right foot and extend the jab as the energy hits it. My left foot lands just before the jab hits and I sink all my weight down into my front leg (and through the punch) - this sinking allows me to fire my right arm technique with real power. It is an explosive movement with all the power coming from the ground to my waist. As the right arm technique is fired I carry the waist through to bring my right foot forwards so I can step in (more likely taiji) and close down or kick (more likely in Karate)
in Taiji - I drill exactly the same method and movement. I just train it slowly.
In my view the form of Taiji is teaching how to establish a root when needed - you certainly shouldn’t be looking to be rooted at all times. You’ll get battered.
I also disagree with Nexus’ description of how an internal stylist would shift stance:
In Yang Taiji you screw the front foot down by loading it up - you don’t unweight the foot to make the turn. In Brush Knee you drive into the front foot (whlst making sure the rear knee is kept from falling in), the foot turns outward 45 as it becomes 100% weighted - then the hip/waist rotation pulls the rear leg through.
Which is exactly how it’s done in my Karate. It’s exactly how it’s done by any good Karateka, regardless of whether he has received internal training.
There are differences between internal and external - but they sure aren’t as basic as you seem to be making out.
The big differences that I find:
- internal punching, i.e. using the recoil from the floor to power a strike into someone
- flow, i.e internal artists should be able to flow incessantly with no breaks - external styles that I know train for 3-5 hits and then get out
- emphasis on rooting, i.e an external stylist knows his power comes from the ground, but still does not cultivate this skill
- receiving/yielding, the external styles I study seem to predicated on countering/destroying - at no point in an external system have I trained using my opponents power to give me more force
On the other side of the coin:
- most externalists can fight (or at least hit hard), most internalists think they can but when tested fall short
- externalists can move quickly, a lot of internal guys seem to associate quickness with tension - you can move quickly and fluidly whilst soft.
One of the biggest problems Taiji people have is this superiority complex - that somehow they could take on any external artist and beat him. Wake up already! If you don’t train an external style (or at least spar with one) then you have no concept of fighting strategy - get into a fight with an MT amateur and see how long you last. How many TJQ people spar? How many use pressure training to simulate adrenal dumps?
I’ve been to Taiji clubs in London that turn their nose up at pad work - you cannot learn to hit hard unless you are hitting something. Twice a week my instructor and I trade hits - internal strikes (done gently), as well as more Yang power hits. Taiji is supposed to a balance of Yin and Yang, yet so many concentrate on softness and reufse to see the hardness that must be present.
Ip Tai Tak has a great line - “No hit, no teach”
I’ll stop rambling now
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
“in Taiji - I drill exactly the same method and movement. I just train it slowly.
In my view the form of Taiji is teaching how to establish a root when needed - you certainly shouldn’t be looking to be rooted at all times. You’ll get battered.”
IMHO, This is why I think that training two opposing styles can lead to different ideas while they may work I would say that they will not lead in the correct direction. Of coures you should be rooted at all times, it provides an axis that your body uses to nurtlize in comeing forces. haveing a root dose not mean have a static infelxable position.
“One of the biggest problems Taiji people have is this superiority complex - that somehow they could take on any external artist and beat him. Wake up already! If you don’t train an external style (or at least spar with one) then you have no concept of fighting strategy - get into a fight with an MT amateur and see how long you last. How many TJQ people spar? How many use pressure training to simulate adrenal dumps?
I’ve been to Taiji clubs in London that turn their nose up at pad work - you cannot learn to hit hard unless you are hitting something. Twice a week my instructor and I trade hits - internal strikes (done gently), as well as more Yang power hits. Taiji is supposed to a balance of Yin and Yang, yet so many concentrate on softness and reufse to see the hardness that must be present.”
I don’t know about the superiority complex, I do know that TC is a completely different idea. Look at your statements on sparing and strategy. What other startagy would one need to know other then how to follow, stick and release? How do you purpose to train these?
Pad work? Again the idea of cultivating more energy (hit harder) to overcome a less energy.
The strong overcoming the weak the fast beating the slow sound familiar? is this TC?
TC and the idea of TC is extremely hard to execute the fact that many people are not really able to do it leads to much confusion. I have used TC against hard stylist. If you follow the idea, don’t use force, relax, follow, stick and release you might be surprised at what you may find.
bamboo leaf