ok something to discuss:
“if you brought someone to me who had never trained an external system, it is impossible for them to be able to defend themselves effectively through just learning Taiji”
note for flame warriors - the quotes mean it isn’t necessarily my opinion..
Re: Discussion - it’s impossible…
Originally posted by Kaitain(UK)
“if you brought someone to me who had never trained an external system, it is impossible for them to be able to defend themselves effectively through just learning Taiji”
I’m not at liberty to agree with this opinioin, whosever it may be.
Each martial art is a self contained, self learned martial art. No martial art out there really relies upon the student having had experience in another martial art.
Does having an idea of what to expect help? perhaps, but that ‘idea’ can come from an easy activity as say, renting a martial arts film. Or witnessing a competition.
A person must begin at some point, no matter what it is that person is learning. A proper teacher will have the ability to deliver the information according to the level they view their students learning ability.
If the person was a contact sport athlete, gymnast, manual laborer of the ‘stone cutter’ type it is possible. Though those activities could be considered ‘external’.
For other types, there are many kinds of firearms.
Of course they can learn, it just may take them longer.
Already knowing how to kick and punch and lock and throw saves having to be taught the “what”, now they can focus on learning a new, maybe better “how”.
But there’s the other side: sometimes its hard to let go of previous material which could be in conflict with the new stuff.
Greetings..
Too often, poster’s of that mindset (“it is impossible for them to be able to defend themselves effectively through just learning Taiji”) are drawing on their own experiences.. i can introduce you to several people that have only trained in Taiji and are quite formidable.. primarily it is a factor of the teacher’s experience and ability to pass it on.. the student’s intellect plays a sizable factor as well, as to how well they can digest and analyze the lessons, how well they can visualize the applications.. Blanket statements of that sort are suspect anyhow..
Be well..
it was a statement made by a highly respected master from the CMC lineage - I think he was talking specifically about his own lineage and system (wouldn’t have much credibility otherwise). He was incredibly soft - I felt like i was trying to push hands with air. Very different to what I have felt from pushing with Yang masters - they are insubstantial and then suddenly there. With this guy he just lead me into emptiness - with the Yang guys they lead me some of the way to emptiness and then hit me 
I would say that learning pure taiji of that nature would be very hard for someone with no martial experience - finding the martial within something like the CMC form seems hard enough.
Anyway Bob - it was for discussion rather than dismissal
Teach me grappling hold, and given that I learned it proprerly ( and maybe even if I am missing something), I can then apply it at least on someone who doesn’t expect it or isn’t really good at it. But I can make it work sometimes, and I can do it on a complying dummy.
Same thing in general for Muay Thai. I learn a new move, within an hour I can at least do it on a dummy. And in some sparring
Taiji though, teach me a move, and I can’t internalise it for weeks, and if I’m not traing hard it won’t even work on a non resisting opponent
Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say that you can’t grasp the concepts of applications for arts like Taijiquan, Bagua, Hsing I without passing through the external phase.
Now, if a person has a level of experience with another art - usually an “external” style - they will not have to go through this initial phase.
Very few instructors know how to take a person through those levels.
Personally, I have yet to meet a person that could use Taijiquan that did not do some other art.
Be it Boxing, Northern, Southern, Grappling of some sort…
But, is that the limitation of the style or is it simply acknowledging that in order to use it you have to train to use it…regularly.
Chicken and egg…or so it would seem.
It’s a strange thing. Myself I have found that hard external training greatly improves sung, and helps you get more sung alot faster, and yet I have never seen an external stylist who had sung
Also, going to an internal master to learn some core basic like “sticking” is like paying harvard tuition to learn basic math.
New students who come to our school without prior training have an advantage that they are open to learn, but I couldn’t imagine grasping this stuff without the sticking and background.
But then again, I’m surprised at how easily these guys turn around and can use the stuff in resisting skills.
I think ones ability to learn any MA is related to how badly they want to learn.
Greetings..
Kaitain(UK): I offer sincere apologies, i didn’t mean to sound dismissive.. just that generalized statements like the one quoted seem suspect to me.. the teacher has a responsibility to know their art fully, be able to help others find the art in themselves, and to, in this case, understand applications and teach that as well…
Taiji is Yin AND Yang, hard and soft.. if a student comes to me with no prior background in MA, they get the basics they need to grasp the applications.. much is put to the student’s own training regimen, i give them the training routines and instruction but they must do the work themselves.. class shouldn’t be held up for individual situations.. i also meet an hour early to work with students on an individual basis..
True, many students need to pass through an external phase, but.. others seem to have a natural inclination and just accept instruction and application as “natural”… I have a student that had no other training at all, but.. had spent many years observing and conceptualizing MA, this person has been the most easily taught student i have had the pleasure to work with.. he simply had all the concepts worked out, all he needed was guidance..
Sometimes i think we limit Taiji with our own experiences and preconceived notions.. sure, it takes time to bring a novice along to the point of combat readiness.. but that’s the teacher’s job.. sure, it’s easier to work with students that have prior experience.. but i didn’t take this on because i wanted “easy”, i wanted to share the experience i have grown to accept as a “way” of living, fully and with gusto.. We will do whatever we “choose” to do, Taiji will be whatever we “choose” it to be.. and, we will teach that which we believe.. Taiji already is a complete system, it is only our preferences that limit its potential..
Some people speak only of its “softness” and deep internal qualities.. others treat it like an external system, clueless to its deeper nature.. likely, it is both, but we focus on that which appeals to us.. it is difficult to sing the praises of softness while you are training a novice in the basics of combat.. more likely we should teach the delicate balance of Yin and Yang.. no “punch” is purely “soft”.. and every Taiji system i am aware of uses the softness to apply effective force with minimal effort.. accept the responsibility to train students in the complete system, and.. if you believe that a student needs external training to use Taiji effectively.. teach it.. Make Taiji a complete system.. ultimately, if they stay with it, the treasure of Taiji will be theirs…
Still, i have evidence that students will find this path without too much external work.. common sense leads them to their personal goals.. and, if we show them what “works”, they will discover a way to get there..
Be well…
EvolutionFist
Greetings..
Also, going to an internal master to learn some core basic like “sticking” is like paying harvard tuition to learn basic math.
Sticking, as used in Taiji is unlike any other MA i am aware of.. it is a difficult and demanding art.. if you were so fortunate as to have an external teacher teach that concept in the same manner as Taiji, you are fortunate.. although it is a “core basic”, it is also a lifetime of work that i have only been able to grasp at the patient hands of an “internal Master”.. (now, this may be strictly a personal quirk of mine.. but sticking correctly is dang difficult)..
Besides, if it’s a “core basic” to Taiji, wouldn’t you expect a Taiji teacher to be the source of that teaching? If i want to learn to drive i hope to go to one teacher to learn it all, i don’t expect to go one place to learn how to start the car and another to learn what the pedals do.. same with Taiji..
Be well…
Thanks Bob
Maybe I should clarify a little bit. Learning how to stick and chi sau in Wing Chun, how to use the upper arm (elbow and up) and lower arm (forearm) as two seperrate arms (giving one four arms) sort of gave me a vocabularly to understand what my internal teacher meant.
Of course now I do things differently. But I know I would not have been able to graps it so quickly. Learning how to intercept, stick and read is an art unto itself. Coming in with that ability, it was one less thing to learn. I just had to learn how to apply it differently.
Building a car from scratch is harder than modifying an existing one. But, building one from scratch can also come out perfect.
I do stress, in the end, it doesn’t matter. Anyone who puts the time in will learn. What’s the rush anyway?
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
[B]
Building a car from scratch is harder than modifying an existing one. But, building one from scratch can also come out perfect.
I do stress, in the end, it doesn’t matter. Anyone who puts the time in will learn. What’s the rush anyway? [/B]
Very well stated.
Most schools teach Tai Chi up to the push hand level only. Many teachers have not learned practical applications as only the inner circle disciples are taught the real fighting techniques.
Note that some Chen Village Schools are now trying to go beyong push hand competitions and experimenting with Sanda rules. You may see some Tai Chi people participating in open free-sparring torunaments very soon.
(Most schools teach Tai Chi up to the push hand level only. Many teachers have not learned practical applications as only the inner circle disciples are taught the real fighting techniques.)
So how would you expect it to be taught with out understanding and proofing the inner aspects of the art using something like push hands?
we teach the outer art leading to an innner understanding, not techniques. Very limiting to think in this way. After a while this inner understanding is reflected in the outer art… a long while 
experimenting with Sanda rules
this it has nothing to do with taiji 
maybe there just trying to drum up some business.
“experimenting with Sanda rules… this it has nothing to do with taiji”
Why not? Kicking, punching, knees, locking and throwing … Taiji has it all.
Now that I’m surrounded by internal players I’m often encountered with the attitude that internal is above “all that other stuff.” Now, I’m impressed as all hell with internal theory, principles and the way they are implied, but we also have a lot of snobs resting on the heals of their teacher, and teacher’s teacher.
If it can’t work in San Da than it doesn’t work.
I just fought my first San Da fight. I lost and gassed out and was sloppy. But I learned I can stop the Tai Kick quite easily. I stopped the punching too. I learned I need to work on bringing the principles of leverage, using the ming men and pressing/lifting in the clinch. And most of all – even against my master’s wishes --conditioning. It don’t mean a thing if it aint got that sting because you ran out of steam.
We do drills in class and they’re are litterally no sweat. But in the ring is mucho different. Constant total body stress.
Internal – Kung Fu in general – needs to step up in these environments if they are to ever get any creedence.
Theory never killed anybody.
EvolutionFist
Greetings..
Thanks for sharing.. and, i think there is wisdom in your perspective.. there needs to be a “balance”.. a skilled external fighter is not so easily handled as your general push-hands partner.. better to be prepared than surprised..
Be well..
EV you missed my point, taiji includes all the things that you mentioned.
experimenting with Sanda rules
would be putting limitations on what they have already and dose nothing to improve the ability or level of their taiji, unless your view is that competitions are the only true way to validate what you do.