Kaitain(UK), I am not looking for an argument regarding movement in yang style taiji. As I mentioned, it is easier shown then explained. If I could say it in a sense that would relate to what you are saying, I would say that in taiji we are attaching to emptiness. In brush knee twist step we generating our movements with the dantien, and move by finding the emptiness in our movements.
Good luck in your training and learning of the internal arts.
What Daniel Poon said about levitation:
Can you use qi to levitate?
"Don’t be silly. Levitating a 50kg person 2 millimetre in the air requires work. E=forcedistance = gravity 50 * 0.002 = 1 Joules of energy, produced over, say 10 second, requires a qi field with the power of 0.1 W. Again your qi field does not have that power. Conservation of matter-energy is a universal law that even daoists would agree with. Indeed, it even sound a bit daoist. "
hmm, I posted that message in the wrong subject. It was suppose to be in the Feng Zhiquang seminar topic
Back to Topic, Tiger-Leopard, if you don’t mind the food thing, Taijiquan should be last. It leaves you the calmest. Leaving training in calmness is best for entering the world outside.
Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.
bamboo leaf
1.Wado-Ryu is not an opposing style to taiji - it is Okinawan Karate based on blending with your opponent via sensitivity and footwork - no hard blocking or suchlike. I cultivate principles in Taiji and focus my principles in Karate.
How do you move if you are rooted? Have you studied the fast form? You cannot be rooted at all times - even the form is not rooted all the way through - what it trains is that pressure applied at any time in any direction can be rooted (if you are doing the form correctly), that does not mean you are rooted throughout
If you never hit anything then you have no power - period. It’s nothing to do with greater energy, it’s to do with being able to use the power you generate from the root. You are in la-la land if you think you can defend yourself if you’ve never hit a pad.
Stick, adhere, follow and release - I train them in pushing hands, but since fights don’t start with both arms attached to my opponents arms I have to train how to get that contact - ‘he moves, I arrive first’
Who did you fight? Do you truly believe that you can defend yourself without ever:
a) moving (you cannot move whilst rooted)
b) making sure that you are transferring energy through your strikes (which can only be done by hitting something)
c) training to receive hard and fast techniques
If you have never tried to yield and return a punch delivered by someone who means it then you cannot hope to defend yourself.
Taiji is an equal harmony of hard and soft - you train the soft until you can make it hard as well. In the classics it does not discount the use of extreme Yang to overcome extreme Yin.
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
We must have different ideas.
I have been training for what I would say is awhile; in this time I have trained with many teachers some quite famous in the style of TC that I play. Funny how they never mentioned training as you suggest.
Who did I fight you mean in some kind of ring? Really, is this the measure of what works these days?
Again we must have different ideas. I will say this, every thing that I have done I have tested to my satisfaction how else can one know if they have understood the ideas of what one is practicing. As for power, its not how much i have or can produce. It’s my ablility to use yours that counts. it’s also my ability to deny you anyplace to apply your power to my body. I guess it’s a differnt out look 
As for rooting, yes every step I take there is a root, how could this not be so?
To be rooted dose not mean some type of fixed immobile stance.
Yes I have played some fast TC while training in Hawaii this would the style that was created by the Tung family. I don’t play that style or those sets anymore for my own reasons.
But to do the movements with out having a root IMHO would be quite incorrect even if done quickly there is root in every step. If this where not so, you would tend to have gaps in your movement that could be exploited by someone who knows TC.
“If you have never tried to yield and return a punch delivered by someone who means it then you cannot hope to defend yourself.â€
It must have been a dream. I did do this to a Korean hard stylist. I caught the end of his punch yielded with it and add my energy to it on it’s way back.
This had the effect of causing him to fall backwards; he couldn’t handle the extra energy coming back. We where both surprised, as it was unexpected. A reaction gained from push hands.
“Taiji is an equal harmony of hard and soft “ agree right track bl†–“ you train the soft until you can make it hard as well. In the classics it does not discount the use of extreme Yang to overcome extreme Yinâ€.
“harmony yes! the middle point†This is confusion “overcoming=disharmonyâ€
Anyway I’m not saying what your doing is wrong or how you understand things, if it works for you then okay. The things that you have written seem to be against the way I understand things and also with the people I train with.
this is how i understand things inregards to my own training and development. it also works for me as your training works for you.
Luck in your training
bamboo leaf
Of course we have different ideas - that’s the point
I train with the best available source of Yang family Taiji in the UK, so I know my training is not contrary to Yang family principles - you train CMC (my only experience of which is through Willie Lim), we think you’re too much cotton and not enough iron, Willie (so I assume CMC) thinks we’re too hard. It’s a stylistic difference. That’s why we understand things differently.
when you step you are not rooted the same way as when you are stationary - when someone applies pressure to a stance I find that adjustments are made to root the energy - that could just be fault with me, but when I speak to my instructor about it he says the same thing. You should always be ABLE to root at any point - maybe we’re just talking about the same thing in alien terms.
I asked about the fast form because it is supposed to train (amongst a lot of things) the constant reestablishment of a root to launch or receive energy, and then the lifting of the root to enable fluid movement. I wasn’t asking to ‘test’ your knowledge or something shallow like that.
I’ll reiterate - if you do not train hitting pads/bags/training partners then your alignment will be at fault - regardless of where your energy comes from… This may be a stylistic variation though - I train to use the strikes that are in every posture of the form. So for example in pushing hands we train to hit through openings whilst sticking with the elbow/upper arm… Not sure if that’s contrary to CMC.
When I asked who did you fight I meant who did you fight - a drunk? a mugger? your neighbour? It wasn’t some spurious request for your match history
A single punch is not a test - I think it is a bit naive to think pushing hands alone is sufficient training to defend yourself. It is an extremely valuable training tool, but it is not fighting. I train with a couple of bouncers at the moment - when they go for me they are throwing 3-4 attacks at once (they are not the most fluid chaps you’ll ever see) - sometimes they are easy to deal with, sometimes they are very hard (kicks especially). If I don’t pressure test my art in a safe environment then I cannot rely on it in a real confrontation.
overcoming does not mean disharmony - if I am attacked then I overcome my opponent - using hard and soft. I do not have a half-way point I adhere to - if my opponent is very soft then I may be very hard, if he is very hard then I may be very soft. Since soft and hard are relative it becomes more semantic than anything - especially if you get into “tense = soft (iron cover around a cotton bar)”. As long as the hardness comes from the softness of my body then it is all the same thing.
As a last note, I believe a lot comes down to what people train for - the situations I have encountered recently (see main board) have required me to raise my level. Hence my main goal in training at the moment is the rapid elimination of any threat to my family. When three guys come and attack me I don’t want to risk anything - I will be as Yang as I can be. As I get more confident in Taiji I will look to temper that approach.
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
The Best??
Please can you enlighten us as to who this best source of Yang family teaching in the U.K. it is that you learn from please?
Plus who said that one has to have physical contact when applying Stick,Adhere,Follow and Release? These are techniquies that are constantly used in fight situations yet it has been said earlier that one cannot use them in a fight because one needs to have their arms in contact with their opponent. This is erroneous as when is developed, naturally you will stick to their Qi, adhere to its directing source follow it direction as you turn the force and project it as you release your hold on them. Surely if you were recieving the top quality best Yang family teachings in the UK you would of been taught something as basic as this wouldn’t you??? Or has the Yang family stopped teaching this level of Taiji???
Yin and Yang
There are some interesting excursions here into Taiji principles and some deviations too. No matter what, Taiji does not advocate hardness through muscular tension and thus anyone who practices this, obviously does not practice Taiji correctly. This is why most people assume that Karate certainly does not assimilate well with Taiji. Yin and Yang I feel relates well to the idea that one trains in relaxation yet as Yuan Qi aborbs into the Bone the marrow increases in density and thus makes the bones heavy and tough. Therefore absolute Yin creates absolute Yang in that respect. Yet the bone is still flexible in its resillience. Lao Tzu likens anything that is stiff and tense is close to death, anything that has strength through softness and yielding is full of life.
John Ding - 1st disciple of Ip Tai Tak, 1st disciple of Grandmaster Yang Sau Chung. As I said, there isn’t a better source for Yang Family instruction in the UK.
Adhere, Stick and Follow - whether in contact or not they NEED TO BE TRAINED. If you only ever train at contact range then you are going to get battered. If you assume you are capable of dealing with someone from range and you don’t train that then you will be rudely awakened.
You also exhibit the standard ignorance about external arts that they ALL have tension. As I said, Wado-Ryu Karate is not contradictory to Taiji - 2 of the Katas (Sanshin and Tencho) are Chinese and when performed slowly should contain the same nuances that the Taiji form contains. The main principles are blending and utilising your opponents force.
You’ll also find that I stated - “As long as the hardness comes from the softness of my body then it is all the same thing.” - train Yin so that you can eventually possess extreme Yang energy (rather than tension)
You can spout on and on about sensing someones Chi and reacting to it - when someone is trying to thrust a pint glass in your face all of that goes out of the window and you rely on what you’ve trained and practiced.
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
Kaitan-
Its sounds like to me you are training with too much hard external power. Taiji is supposed to be hard CONCEALED in soft, ie steel wrapped in cotton. It is not a “mix” of hard and soft movements. Each movement is supposed to contain both. But the hard is inside, you’re not supposed to see it. The “power” comes from internal mechanics, which you mostly cannot see.
Now, there are “harder looking” forms in the Chen Style Taiji. The Pao Cheui (or cannon fist) set is much more explosive and agressive. But it is taught to students with the assumption that they already have a good understanding of the internal mechanic through the earlier forms.
Sparring is only useful if you already understand the internal mechanic. It is not really useful for begginners because instead of using Taiji they will just use normal muscular power. This is why I’m suspicious of Taiji schools that do a lot of sparring right off the bat. Are they really using Taiji energies or are they just passing off some slow kung fu for Taiji?
That is why push hands is so valuable. It allows one to test their internal energies. It is not that it is some “wimpy” version of sparring. It should be training those very energies at the root of Taiji.
The paradox about internal arts is that at low levels it is essentially useless. But at higher levels it can become more powerful than its external cousins.
It takes a long time to learn to apply the movements correctly with internal energy, so initially it isn’t really all that effective for self defense..
In contrast an art like Choy Lay Fut was designed to be taught quickly and applied quickly and it uses energies that are quickly understood (at least by most people!!!???.)
Fu-Pow
[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-11-01 at 09:31 AM.]
[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-11-01 at 09:35 AM.]
[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-11-01 at 09:38 AM.]
then you haven’t understood me properly
I know what I have, I know what I train to have, I’ve felt what I want to achieve - either the masters of my style are inept or my flavour differs from yours
With over 15 years total MA training I know what I’m doing and how it is different now compared to two years ago - as you say, Taiji has most value for those with a strong martial background
The post asked for experiences from those who train both - I offered those experiences. In response I have been told that the route I follow is wrong, my instruction is bad and now that I’m too external.
I guess the only way you’ll ever know is to come and train with me - there’s no point arguing further.
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
Kaitan-
You may want to re-read my post I was still editing it when you responded.
Anyways, how long you’ve trained counts for very little if the quality of the instruction that you recieve is substandard.
Fu-Pow
Hammer and tongs
Hmm, I started out in Wado Ryu, a long time ago. I had the good fortune to see and briefly train with Shintani Masaru, an Ohtsuka disciple. I’d like to think I got to see it at the highest level. I don’t think the use of root in Wado Ryu and Yang style are even superficially related.
The idea that the root is re-established implies that it is lost at some point. What are you doing that you lose your root? To transfer weight in Yang style is not throw it from one leg to another, its to change substantial to insubstantial and back. While the initial experience of root is best done while still, this doesn’t mean you have to be static to have it. Have you ever touched someone with Bagua skills?
The idea that you have to resort to Karate and look outside traditional Yang style for fighting skills is a bit pathetic. I have to question the completeness of the transmission of the style if it needs to have external martial arts thrown in to round it out. Wado is a smart style, for Karate, but its still not powerful in terms of structure and connection. Fat old Wang Shujin, with an ass as big as the moon, was still able to toy with any Japanese hard stylist that came his way. He ate their punches like candy (how many black-belts broke their arms on his big belly?) and put them on the ground at will. Instead of working up a sweat on the pads he just stood still.
The idea that you have to run into things all of the time for power is simple-minded and shows a lack of experience with internal connection. There is nothing wrong with occasionally testing progress by hitting, I prefer a human in thick chest protective gear, but to make it the focus is to make the test into the skill. Its the same thing as mistaking push-hands for fighting. Testing is testing and fighting is fighting, they are not the same.
I used to hang out with boxers and bouncers at a club in Winnipeg. I was a popular training partner because I was the worst-case scenario. I’m only 5’ 8" and about 150 lbs, but the bouncer lads were challenged by internal connection. (Right I just remembered a previous disagreement we had Kaitan, you can’t catch a jab with your Taiji can you?) Lots of hits are still coming from one spine. If the opponent can kick with more than their leg I’m going ot worry about it, but, after taking a Xinyi chicken kick, I realize that they can’t do much to good structure.
I think one of the reasons you are getting jumped on Kaitan is that you didn’t simply “share your experiences,” you slammed internal stylists as unrealistic and weak for not training external martial arts. Why when it comes to the internal external debate do the hard advocates always point to Grandma’s community club Taiji as if it were these people who hang out this forum? There are people who can make it work, and when they do there is no comparison.
I believe, Kaitan, that we will remain in contention. Its not personal and if I’m insulting to you I don’t do it to criticize your ego, its perhaps just a flaw in mine. I believe that your are in too small a pond and would benefit from exploring internal martial arts from other sources. Go to China with your Wado-Yang style and then, if you can honestly maintain your current view, I for one will look more seriously at your conclusions.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
Just some follow-ups.
“So for example in pushing hands we train to hit through openings whilst sticking with the elbow/upper arm… Not sure if that’s contrary to CMC.â€
I think if you train this way then you are not really listening. Your power and movement comes form the other. Balance is maintained by the ability to change and follow the empty (soft place) of the other. Not easy and there are many levels.
“When I asked who did you fight I meant who did you fight - a drunk? a mugger? your neighbour? It wasn’t some spurious request for your match history
A single punch is not a test “- I think it is a bit naive to think pushing hands alone is sufficient training to defend yourself. “
In my life I’ve a few fights but I will not talk about them here its not important. The punch I mentioned was thrown in a hard contact sparing match against a fellow MA that I knew many yrs ago. It came of itself, stick, follow release.
“It is an extremely valuable training tool, but it is not fighting.â€
Pushands seems to be many things to many people. I look at it as a way to really examine my own understanding and abilities. Pushhands is not about pushing. Any type of fighting involves touching, slow, fast, short, long, high or low. It’s the same once the real skill is acquired.
“ I train with a couple of bouncers at the moment - when they go for me they are throwing 3-4 attacks at once (they are not the most fluid chaps you’ll ever see) - sometimes they are easy to deal with, sometimes they are very hard (kicks especially). If I don’t pressure test my art in a safe environment then I cannot rely on it in a real confrontation.â€
IMHO this will not help in developing real TC skills, its called seeking the far, missing the near. What will develop higher skills is finding higher level TC people and training with them/ invest in loss.
I think that some times people see little old ladies or men playing TC and are mislead in what they see. IMHO I would say be careful. My first TC teacher in HI was 63 when I met him. He really liked it when people tried to rob him in downtown Honolulu.
When the police arrived they would always tell him to take it easy with the bad guys. His name was Sam Kakina. a very good and kind man.
What works for you and your understanding is in accordance with what you want to learn, me I just want to learn about keeping my balance inside and out. I don’t really care much about fighting.
luck in your training
bamboo leaf
Couple of points:
I don’t think you can appreciate the internal without some depth of experience in the external.
Nor do I think that one is necessarily better than the other.
It is naive to think that your Taiji is going to give you some mystical powers especially if going up against an experienced external martial artist. You got to be really good at the internal to make it work.
I think they are both really cool and learning one doesn’t necessitate giving up the other.
Just can’t confuse the two (which I see a lot of people do especially with Yang and Shaolin). I imagine the two being like yin and yang.
Lets take the scenario of having a hard straight punch thrown at me. I can either take the external approach and “attack” the limb with my forearms as it comes in. Or I can take the internal approach and stick to the persons arm, lead them and then send their energy recoiling back through their body.
Of course, there are lots more options than this
but hopefully this illustrates my point.
Fu-Pow
“It is naive to think that your Taiji is going to give you some mystical powers especially if going up against an experienced external martial artist. You got to be really good at the internal to make it work.â€
Can you explain this a little more?
“Lets take the scenario of having a hard straight punch thrown at me. I can either take the external approach and “attack” the limb with my forearms as it comes in. Or I can take the internal approach and stick to the persons arm, lead them and then send their energy recoiling back through their body. “
I don’t quite understand how you could do this. One is based on some type of technique the other is based on trained principles.
For example if you train not to go against or use force, how would you suddenly decide to use force or go against it.
Seems like you would be fighting your self.
Just wondering?
In my own practice I found that it was really impossible for me to keep both. Some may, I wasn’t one of them.
bamboo leaf
arrogant rant, with apologies
To think that internal and external styles are yin and yang is to miss that internal styles are already yin and yang. Just because softness is a diffucult concept to embody and so occupies a central place in the introduction to Taijiquan doesn’t mean it is the end-point. Just because yielding is a skill doesn’t mean that you can’t fire a cannon through his chest.
To only think of Yang Chengfu’s style of Taijiquan may make the argument against softness seem reasonable, and then only because so many people with poor skills have disemminated it. What about Chen style or Baguazhang or (drumroll) Xingyiquan. Xingyiquan’s internal method for dealing with a straight punch is to tear the limb from the socket before moving in for something resembling a vivisection.
Still it is an internal world apart from external styles. It cultivates embodied consciousness, with well defined methods. It trains connected structure with full body relaxation. It trains spiral jing and the generation of movement from deep in the body core. Its methods are energies not techniques and so can change like light and as the energy of the strike lands…
If you really get internal connection you will see that to be a sweaty monk is counterproductive to real martial progress. Leaping about is fun, but knowing how doesn’t help me appreciate the internals, it just makes me aware that some time was wasted that could have been spent on progress.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
which is fine fron a scholastic approach to learn the art for the arts’ sake
Given recent occurrences in my life I’ve had to take a more pragmatic short-term approach to my art/s - I would like to have the facility to train just Taiji 8 hours a day with no interruption as I think the style would be workable with that degree of practice. However, given my lifestyle allows for 2-3 hours a day at most, and given that I am concerned with self-defence, I have to work principles and applications. I hope that this isn’t pushing me too far off course - but if it does then so be it, I need to have a workable system rather than an academically pure taiji that is useless for the next 5 years (in self-defence terms)
I choose not to respond to your earlier post Kevin as it will serve no good purpose for either of us - I’ve spent 12 hours refraining from posting some vitriolic reply which I know is the wrong thing to do. I appreciate that you feel I was attacking all internal artists - that wasn’t the case. I also stick to my opinions on training and useage - I also see your perspective. I think it strange to believe that we will never agree on anything, but that will remain to be seen.
If my approach has been too hard-edged then I apologise - I’ve had a rough week coping with court and so on, so maybe I haven’t been the most diplomatic person.
Catch you later
“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> . Its methods are energies not techniques and so can change like light and as the energy of the strike lands…
[/quote]
Bamboo leaf…you wanted to know what I was talking about when I wrote “mystical taiji powers”? This is exactly what I’m talking about.
Kevin you need to have an experienced CLF or Hung Gar master split your nose open like a cherry tomato. Then we’ll see how your mystical energies are gonna protect you.
Taiji might work wonders against some shmoe on the street. Karate will for that matter. But you take two experienced martial artists, internal and external, and don’t be so sure that internalist is going to win.
And don’t confuse Shaolin MA’s with the sport Wushu that you see now. Most true Shaolin MA’s aren’t about jumping around, they’re just as down and dirty as any internal style.
Fu-Pow