Reconciling Wai Jia and Nei Jia. Is it possible?

I just attended Feng Zhiquiang’s seminar in Seattle over the weekend. One of the things he said is that external martial art practices are destructive to the body and internal arts like Taiji are nourishing to the body.

I really like CLF and Chen Taiji. But is it possible to train in both of them? Or are they counterproductive to each other? Does anyone have experience training in both the external and internal arts…

(I don’t want this to become and external vs. internal debate. There are obvious differences between the two. If you disagree with that save if for another thread. Please post only if you have experience in both…or train both…)
Thanks

Fu-Pow

“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Hmmm

I’ve seen plenty of long lived wei jia guys and have seen plenty of nei jia guys die young.

I think he is right, but only to a point. Sopme excessive external methods are damaging - but so are some internal methods.

And you’ll never get two guys to agree on what exactly all of this means. AND without any kind of controlled scientific study, it is all highly subjective opinion.

In other words, I wouldn’t worry about it.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

I believe I read somewhere that practicing taiji or bagua circlewalking excessively is also bad for health- can drain the ‘jing’ (kidney energy). this raises the question ‘what is good for health’ if all these things (supposedly healthy) can be bad, or how can we compensate for them? This interests me very much too.

Fu Pow:

“External” and “internal”–waijia and neijia–are very broad and ambiguous categories. People have tended to group whole arts within one or the other of those categories. I think that it is more accurate to characterize a particular drill or approach to a form as external or internal, rather than an entire art.

For example, Shaolin arts (whether Nan or Bei in origin)are often described as “waijia” or external, when in fact Shaolin arts will include “internal” practices such as qigong at their higher levels. In fact some, such as wing chun, introduce internal elements to their practice from the very start (sil lim tao when correctly practiced)–a feature that is often used to distinguish the “big three” neijia arts of taijiquan, baguazhang and xingyiquan from the so-called “waijia”.

Feng Zhiqiang was first exposed to the internal aspects of martial arts by Hu Yaozhen, a master of xingyiquan (which he called xinyiquan)as well as traditional Chinese medicine. Hu is sometimes called the “father” of modern Chinese qigong. He invited Feng to attack him vigorously, easily handling the attacks and thereby convincing Feng to become his student. Hu bluntly told Feng that the individual “external” PRACTICES he had been engaging in (sand training to harden his palms, for example) would ruin his health. Hu did not condemn Feng’s previous training in, for example, tongbeiquan in its entirety, however. Feng today still incorporates movements from that art into his chansijin and hunyuan qigong. Rather, Hu condemned the “external” approach to certain practices.

Probably reflecting Hu’s influence, Feng also condemns the overly harsh mindset that can accompany such “external” practices. He goes so far as to call it a “mental illness.” I think Feng is concerned here with the overall balance of his system of taijiquan, which he frankly states is as concerned with nurturing health and good character as with martial application. Wude and good health in old age (Feng is 75) matter very much to him. But don’t think his art doesn’t work. He and his students do teach principles of application, illustrated by specific technique.

I don’t practice Choy Lay Fut so I don’t know what specific conflicts taijiquan practice might present with it. Generally, though, it takes a lot of diligent practice to learn the principles and attain deep gong fu in any martial art, and taijiquan may require more practice than most to really understand it and develop skill. I know I don’t have the time and energy to engage in more than one art at a time. If you’re really interested in taijiquan, you may want to put CLF on hold for a few months to give taijiquan some in-depth study. Work with your teacher on an individual basis if he has the time/inclination and you can afford it. This will at least give you some idea of what taijiquan involves, and whether you’re suited to its practice. You seem to have quite a bit of experience with CLF, so some time off probably wouldn’t hurt your individual practice–although you should consider your relationship with your CLF teacher and whether it would be harmed.

I’d be surprised if CLF itself doesn’t have some kind of internal training. It’s a fairly complete system, from what I’ve seen, and would be as concerned with the strength and health and well-being of its practitioners as much as any other Nanquan art.

Good luck.

Good post, Wujidude.

Most internalists won’t be flexible with this. Since internal arts are teaching you to move a certain way, they feel that any type of external exercises (like waijia martial arts, weight training, etc.,) will hinder your progress. So, if you have a good teacher and are serious about internal training, you should stop CLF.

Also, I don’t believe meditation exercises are considered internal. I just think they’re there just to clear the mind and stuff.

To much circle walking and taiji will decrease Jing? ok…yeah…lol..Do you even really know what Jing is?? Any to much of one thing is bad. Ask marathon runners how they feel after a race…they’ll tell you most wish they where dead.

I would like to know how you come by seeing so many internists die young.. that feels like a BS statement but oh well.

Internal and external arts will make the body healthy. What you will notice is that the older someone of an external art gets their forms and who they move show their age. You watch a 20 year old Taijiquan man and then see him when he is 50, he will more then likely look and move better.

The progression is all systems because more internal … except for the ones that are already internal they just work from there.

Its like taking a Honda civic and spending a great deal of cash turning it ino a race car, as where you buy a formula one and well its a race car already..you just spend more time and money making what it already does that much better.

The internal arts are kinda like that.

Too many people get caught up in this internal vs. external stuff anyway. If you like the system you do..then just stick with it and make it work for you. The reality of it all is the maybe 1 of the 200 of you will ever have the ability to really do anything with the art you pick, so be it internal or external it really doesn’t matter, their won’t ever really be a refined level of skill regardless.

As for this Shen and jing and blah stuff, You can only really take this with a grain of salt. The Daoists for all their ability and deep insight didn’t have the gambit on how the body works, unfortunately today we have the science but it run by assholes more interested in running a business and making money then making us healthy..cause then we wouldn’t be sick and need healing…

If the doaists then had the technology of now … that would be awesome.

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

Wujidude, thanks for the post. You seem to be very knowledgable about Master Feng. Anyways, there are some conflicts with CLF that I’ve noticed.

  1. We adopt a narrower and lower bow stance than in Taiji. This forces you to lean forward a bit more so the back knee joint doesn’t get pressure from the side. Taiji adopts a more relaxed stance (although I’ve seen some pictures of Chen Fake and he is pretty low down.)

  2. We use more hip power in execution of techniques. This relates to my first point because we square off the hip in CLF.

  3. Some movements are very linear. For example, the leopard techniques (although I’m trying to make them more circular)…you rarely see anything linear in Taiji.

  4. There is slight tension at the completion of movements. This is because alot of the big moves in CLF rely on a lever and pulley type system. ie the back fist goes down the front fist comes up. Taiji seems to lack any of this muscular tension.

  5. CLF incorporates the shoulder and shoulder strength. Taiji relaxes the shoulder.

more to come…but I’m at work!!!

Fu-Pow

“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

I don’t see how external training is going to do any harm to your internal training. I am training in Tai Chi, but I am still training my horse stance. All this does to my internal training is make my legs stronger so I can do it slower without trouble in footwork. (This isn’t a really good example, but it counts as external. )

Whoa, Kevin just put the smack down…

Iron

“training horse stance” is the opposite of taiji?

What stance are you in during qigong??

External can hurt your internal when it they train your most basic reflexes in opposite directions. This is not always. But it is sometimes. For example, in the internal arts there is a certain way of accepting someone’s energy, both statically, and dynamically where someone’s energy “pushes you into structure.” If you resist your opponent, this will not work. If you withdraw from your opponent, this will not work. This is at the split-second, very basic reflex level. When done properly, the results can appear miraculous. Many external styles train in methods that teach these basic reflexes to do the opposite of what is required here. This is one example of how external can harm your internal.

You need a role model

wujidude pretty much summed it up.

Just getting off the Chiu Wai seminar this weekend, there is a role model that an “external” stylist can be vibrant in his golden years. At age 70, he outperformed many of the attendees 1/3 his age. Classic Hung Gar! Not a senior citizen version. His father, Chiu Kao, lived to 100. The day he died, he did his normal hung gar workout, had his lunch, took his normal nap and never woke up. As Chiu Wai put it, he lead life to the fullest and never suffered up to the end.

That said, at high levels, “external” styles will look very different then what you see taught to beginners and intermediates. You add the internal energies.

For Fu-pow’s questions,

  1. You answered your own question. Taichi doesn’t stress a more relaxed stance. It just that they don’t start with the more strenuos ones until you can do it without breaking energies.

  2. This is a big contention with “internalist” Hip vs. Dan Tien. Hung Gar answer, you train the hip as a macro exercise and you will eventually train it so you don’t need to do it. Look at the way you learn forms, they break up the moves into disjoint pieces, (step, block, strike,etc) with very gross movements but eventully you are taught to string them together. This continues in your training.

The counter is you train the micro movements from the beginning, your body ber really learns to use the whole body. It’s why you get a lot of internalist that have practiced for 20+ years and still can’t demonstrate any true jings.

  1. Here’s where internal and external arts do differ. Not everything in the “external” arts can be internalized. Some things use leverage and speed over internal energies. These were added to quickly give self defense and emergency situation skills.

  2. OK, I only know HG and not CLF. Is that true for ALL your movements? Check with your sifu. See #3 for the rest.

  3. Again I don’t know CLF but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard sink the elbow and relax the shoulder from all the HG seniors. The bridging techniques don’t work otherwise. Notice that a lot of TC/BG players break these rules too.

Finally, there are clearly some very harmful practices in the “external” folks. These come from the folks that thought that physical strength with a little of technique was the key. It’s not surprising since it takes a lot of skill to overcome huge gaps in size. But physical has mich lower limits then internal.

Wow that was long…

Long post? Maybe, but it was excellent. Thanks.

I’ve met a number of people who’ve taken Chen taijiquan practice, in particular chansijin (silk-reeling), back into their primary art and improved. Most recently I worked out with an Isshinryu kareteka and jujutsu practitioner who was explaining how illuminating taijiquan practice had been for him with respect to both karate and jujutsu.

I guess, Fu Pow, whether there will be a conflict will depend on how deeply you come to understand deeper principles of both CLF and Chen taiji, and how well you practice. I’m not at all saying I understand or can demonstrate those “deeper principles,” just that some people seem to be able to recognize them and use them in arts that on the surface may not appear compatible. An example out of the classical literature is Sun Lutang, who worked with xingyi, bagua and taiji in coming up with his Sun style taijiquan (it ain’t Chen).

Good luck.

It is a hard task to complete, though. I mean, Sun Lu Tang did make it…but do you know how much that guy practiced?

I’m not trying to bring you down, Fu-Pow. Just stating the facts.

I have stated some differences, but let me take a minute to state some similarities…

If there is one thing I’ve learned taking both arts is that nothing in martial arts is linear. Big circles or small circles, if it doesn’t have them then it isn’t real Kung Fu. Look at the human body there is no part of it that is completely straight, so how can you force it to move this way. In terms of physics the quickest way between two points is a straight line. In terms of the human body the quickest way between two points is a curve.

So in CLF I look for the big circles and in Taiji I look for the small circles. Hopefully, one day I can look for the small circles in CLF and the big circles in Taiji.

In addition, in order to be a good martial artist you must stay relaxed. Not limp, not tight, but some where in between. Like steel wrapped in cotton. The joints must be open. Good Hung Gar is this way, good Taiji is this way.

Lastly, with out a solid stance, your kung fu is worth nothing.

Thanks for the posts guys. I feel much better about my large undertaking…

Fu-Pow

“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

no

the horse stance is much more than just for leg strength. if that is how you are practicing it, then you are practicing it wrong. it is just as internal as any zhan zhuang stance, and is perfect for building an internal foundation. it’s uses:

  1. tightens energy in the legs slightly, so qi is generated there.
  2. builds strong energy in the dan tian from the positioning of the hands and legs
  3. develops a root very easily for beginners
  4. and, as you said, makes your legs strong

every good style should have internal and external training. you can not train properly in any style of gongfu without internal practice, because you will never grasp the essence of it.

“Taichi doesn’t stress a more relaxed stance. It just that they don’t start with the more strenuos ones until you can do it without breaking energies.”

Not in my experience. Taiji should always be relaxed.

“It’s why you get a lot of internalist that have practiced for 20+ years and still can’t demonstrate any true jings.”

There’s just as many externalists that can’t either.

I think when he meant strenous, he meant a lower stance.

PlasticSquirrel

You are assuming something here. In the Yang style I do or at least did not yet learn the horse stance. I did, however, learn it in external arts, so I get that aspect of it.

If you are saying this is wrong, you are choosing sides between external and internal.

I didn’t just say it will make my legs stronger. The standing in the horse stance will also give me a better foundation so that I will make better footwork.

I also didn’t mention that I was taught that horse stance training also teaches determination, and patience.

Same thing different view

Hey Braden,

I agree with you 100%. Strenuous still must adhere to the basic principles. I just meant it isn’t all limp noodle and no work. Look at the stories of Yang and Chen. Sweating after workouts, their fathers making them cry and want to quit Taiji.

Fu-pow was commenting that his taiji doesn’t push his stance as much as his CLF but his CLF seemed unaligned or a bit off. This is the two paths on the same mountain. One says get close to the right position and let the body find the “optimum” alignment. The other says keep the optimum alignment as far as the body can take it and work to the full range of position. No right or wrong because both methods have produced results. Bottom line is are they willing to put in the “kung fu” (effort to achieve a skill)

As for the external folks with no jing. I’m with you too. Just saying that “talking” about the proper thing doesn’t mean people actually do it.

On the otherhand, “never” talking about the proper end cause people to get stuck in the beginner habits.