Interesting Interview

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

Grandmaster Wang Xiang-Zhai (1885-1963)

For health preservation, it restrains the spirit and mettle, and brings discomfort to the practitioner. For combat, it harms the practitioner’s limbs and trunk, and causes the useful body to become a mechanical and stiff thing, it also disturbs the student’s nerves, and is nothing more than wasting one’s time. As for its method of training, a punch with a fist here, a slap with the palm there, a kick to the left, and another one to the right, that is pitiful and laughable.

As for dealing with an enemy in a fight, against a master-hand, please do not even consider it, if the adversary is not stiff and sluggish, even the famous masters of this boxing have no chance to apply their skills. These abuses are so big that ‘Taijiquan’ might soon become just a mere form comparable to a chess manual. For the last twenty years, most people who have studied this boxing have not been able to differentiate right and wrong, even if someone has been able to differentiate them, he has not been capable of putting it into practice. As for common students, most of them use their ears instead of their eyes.

This is just one example from his interview - not to pick on Tai Chi because he picked on all martial arts. What’s funny is that he’s saying a lot of the same stuff that we argue about today on the various forums.

‘Tongbeiquan’ is popular in northern China , especially in Beijing . The practitioners I have met were mostly out of shape, however, some were also holding a theory that was close to being right, but when checking their skills, they were very far from it. Most probably their predecessors were not like that, but the later generations have lost the essence. Although occasionally there were some who had deep and great skills in some one-sided parts of it, eventually they will have no hope of walking down the right path of combat science.

It’s a long read, but worth the effort.

2

Heck, just this line:

[2] Interviewer: What is the basis of combat science?

Wang Xiangzhai: What is, after all, the basic principle of combat science? Different people have different answers to this question, but studying boxing routines, forms of movements, fixed techniques, and training hits and beats, all fall into the category of superficial, and although the boxing routines and forms of movements have been popular already for a long time, they are, indeed, extremely harmful to the people.

Doesn’t it sound familiar?

3

Yep, fighters tend to always see the “holes” in the approaches of “non-fighters”.

4

That article has some serious chunks of gold in there.

5

Have just had time to start it and skim some. Really nice interview. I’m printing it out.

6

It is interesting. Kind of strange though; in some ways he really seems to agree with the line of thinking of the ‘fighters,’ but then he also says things like the quotes below which make him sound like a real ‘internalist’ :eek:–not used to hearing these two views from one person :slight_smile: Thanks for posting this, it’s unique–like putting Ross and robinhood in one body. :D:p

f one learns the method of exercise properly, then the benefits will be great, but learning it improperly can even lead to death. Only very few of the sportsmen doing strenuous exercise can enjoy longevity. The boxers who have lost their lives or injured their bodies because of improper exercise are uncountable. That kind of boxing is indeed pitiful and also laughable. Knowing the advantages and disadvantages of studying boxing, one should experience and observe the states of movement and stillness with special care while exercising, not only the external movement of the body, but also the moving state of the spirit.

First I shall talk about the stages in the study of boxing. As I said before, health preservation and self-defence are inseparable from each other, if one is lost, then abuses are created and one will enter the wrong path. First of all, one should train and foster the spirit, the temperament, and the natural instincts, and only after that start talking about bringing the fine instinctive strength of the nerves, the limbs, and the trunk into play. The first step in studying boxing is exercising the nerves as the basic training method, and intuitively perceiving the peristalsis of the whole body. The second step is training the trial of strength (shili) and the trial of voice (shisheng). The third step is self-defence.

Basic training: in daily life, in order to gain results from training all the time, while walking, standing, sitting, and reclining, one must start the training from the pile standing (zhanzhuang) method. Arrange the posture of the whole body properly, keep the body upright, have no thoughts, strengthen the nerves in stillness, adjust the breath, warm up and nourish the muscles, let every cell activate naturally. The strength comes from the inside and reaches the outside smoothly in the whole body. Thus, one does not train the bones and the muscles, yet they get trained by themselves, one does not nourish the nerves but they get nourished by themselves, one should especially experience and observe their barely perceptible movement and activity. When one has done it for long enough time, one will know that standing brings many inexhaustible wonders. One who wants to achieve wonders in his boxing skills, should first dedicate his time to pile standing.

If one does not have the basic mechanical ability, then no matter what the movement is like, it is all wrong. The same applies to using strength and not using strength. The movements of an ordinary person cannot have strength without constant unilateral tension that disturbs the blood circulation. Every kind of strength based on constant unilateral tension is stiff and inharmonious, and besides that, harmful to health. Having strength without constant unilateral tension is namely having strength without using strength, and when using it, one gains strength.

True human nature loves naturalness and unrestricted free movement, the whole offshoot of the natural instincts are the basis of that. Every morning in the fresh air, without any method, just let the joints of the whole body be slightly bent, consider the sky, move slowly and freely, experience and observe the intestinal qi22 and the flow of blood. At the same time, intuitively perceive the external void and nimble opposing strength. This is called the spirit resembles as if it was swimming.

The spirit and the body are comfortable and natural, not only free and unrestricted, but also gradually realising the echo of nature. After a long time of training, the instincts unveil and the rays of the spirit will shine, one will have gained the basis of combat even without having sought them. If one always sticks to mechanical movement, plays around with a staff and performs with a spear seeking beauty, taking that as the glory of being good in martial arts, then one does not know that if a man of insight sees that, he will feel sick for ten days. That is terrible, such a person cannot comprehend boxing for life.

7

Yeah, I get the feeling MightyB posted this article in the main forum with some fighterly quotes to try to trick the anti-internalists into reading a very very internal-oriented interview;)

8

[QUOTE=rett;1229814]Yeah, I get the feeling MightyB posted this article in the main forum with some fighterly quotes to try to trick the anti-internalists into reading a very very internal-oriented interview;)[/QUOTE]

As the old man is explicitly stating that internal and external have no meaning to him, you probably shouldn’t try to “fit” what he is saying into your entirely different paradigm of internal and external. In fact, that is probably the reason why yiquan degenerated so quickly - which it has - into precisely what Wang is criticsing here.

Whatever it is you think you do, and all the people like you, there is no common ground between that and Wang’s yiquan. I’m very sorry to tell you the truth - but the article is actually about you, criticising you. And also a lot of so-called yiquan teachers.

If you can get over that, and are interested in what he really means, then don’t over ascribe meaning to his words. Wang believed in guided “intuitive development”. In modern terms, that would be the same as teaching someone BJJ moves - that would be necessary to learn the “superfical hits and beats” in this poor translation. But “rolling” is where one develops an adaptive, intuitive ability to apply those techniques.

Still, Wang is going further - he’s saying that it is possible to enhance that process of intutive development by improving motor control and physcial power generation (for striking rather thanI just BJJ in these terms) through extra methods, such as zhan zhuang and slow movement training.

Nothing about that is “internal” in the way internet hoaxers mean it. Internal in this sense is simply unfolding intuitive ability. For most people engaged in real training, that just means some kind of basically useful ability - nothing like the nonsense you promote, I’m very sorry. I am actually embarrassed to say it - I just can’t belive adult humans are here engaging in the type of talk you do.

9

INTERVIEW WITH ZHAO DAOXIN
Recorded by Huang Jitao
Translated from Chinese by Andrzej Kalisz

Zhao Enqing originally was disciple of Zhang Zhankui (Zhang Zhaodong). Later he learned from the founder of yiquan – Wang Xiangzhai and became one of his best students, receiving from Wang a honorary name Daoxin.

The original interview was made by Huang Jitao in 4 sessions over 4 days and is quite long. Here is only a translation of small part.

Huang:
So also traditional wushu is not efficient in fighting?

Zhao:
People from traditional styles say that the modern wushu from national institutes is just “flowery forms”. But it still doesn’t mean that themselves they possess “true gongfu”. The wushu from institutes neglects fighting side, while traditional wushu is talking about fighting. But it doesn’t mean that it really got it… Contemporary traditional wushu, just like the wushu from institutes is mainly about training forms. Moreover there is a lot of symbolic or ritual gestures, with no relation to fighting. Looking from point of view of training – they still use old methods of low efficiency. In theory they should help to develop practical skills, but in fact are more like kind of praying, method of developing patience, and just a lot of useless effort. I don’t know how many dozens of thousands of people practice traditional wushu in China. But I also don’t know about any of them, who could prove their abilities in fighting on international stage.

Huang:
But in times when foreign fighting experts and strong men kept coming to China, Chinese masters of that generation defeated them many times…

Zhao:
If there are so many examples of Chinese master defeating foreigners, why we can only hear about it from our side, and they don’t mention this? Maybe they don’t want to talk about being defeated. But on the other side how many Chinese were defeated, but we didn’t talk about it, because it would be humiliating. Anyway we don’t know what were the proportions between victories and defeats. And if Wu Song had fought not a tiger, but just a cat, there wouldn’t be reason to praise him for centuries. And what kind of opponents were those foreigners, who were defeated by our masters? My teacher (Zhang Zhankui) met Russian „strong man", I met Danish „boxer". Other friends had similar situations. But our opponents were defeated after just one action, there was no real fight. But this was only because traditional Chinese wushu didn’t meet real tigers. In those times you could easily became famous because of „defeating" some foreigner, but it was only because they were not any real experts.

More challenging was fighting with other Chinese at that time. No foreigners signed up for the leitai tournaments in Hangzhou or Shanghai. And the people from traditional styles, no matter if they were some monks or great masters famous in some place, they either became injured in fights or were not brave enough to fight. And the winners, although they signed up as representatives of some traditional systems, instead of forms and other methods of those systems, they were using completely different methods preparing for fighting.

Huang:
Could you tell us your opinion and views about Chinese martial arts?

Zhao:
There is not much time. So I will only outline some issues. This will not be very systematic discussion. And because people all the time talk a lot about advantages, I will say rather about problems.

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Huang:
First tell us, what you think about the internal and external division, and division based on territory.

Zhao:
If we want Chinese martial arts develop, we must reject such divisions. It doesn’t mean that there is no meaning in them at all. But they only partially describe way of demonstration, and they don’t really say anything about way of fighting. Divisions in martial art should be based on effect in fighting, and not the way of practice, and they should not be effect of swindle. They should express human body and developing technique, and not sect-like customs nourished for hundreds and thousands years. The division for Shaolin, Wudang, Emei and Zhongnan arts is only expressing fact, that communication was difficult in old times. But it is past. And the internal-external division was made up by literati fascinated by the style which they practiced, so they started calling it internal family art – skilful writers created flowery descriptions. But in fact nobody would talk about himself being representative of external family art. In fact, in real fighting there are no styles.

Huang:
But the internal-external division is at least representing the real division for soft and hard.

Zhao:
This division is even more muddled. Some just use it to criticize other schools. But when they talk about their own school, they stress that „soft and hard supplement each other", that „internal and external are trained together". They maintain that it’s only them who keep right balance between soft and hard, while others tend to much toward softness or hardness.

11

Huang:
But the concepts of internal-external, soft-hard, at least led to developing sophisticated theories of internal training – concept “from yi to qi to jin".

Zhao:
“Yi, qi, li", „jing, qi, shen" - those concepts related to internal training are hard to express with normal language. We could say that it is about using self-suggestion to induce feeling of comfort and strength. There are new concepts, at least evenly useful, and even more efficient in practical use.

Huang:
What are the shortcomings of Chinese martial arts if we are talking about way of fighting?

Zhao:
There is a lot of shortcomings and taboos. Apart from those which are common for all Chinese martial arts, there are other, specific for some school. For example everybody fears that his style will resemble some other, so they try hard to make it look different. If you tell some person doing baguazhang, that his movements resemble taijiquan, he will hardly accept such opinion. If you tell some xingyiquan practitioner that you notice some similarities to western boxing he will feel bad about it. But actually the differences between styles are more in ritual gestures than in the way of figthing. But those gestures are useful only for demonstration or meeting, in fight they are useless and stupid.

There is also taboo of falling down. In challenges there was an unwritten rule, that touching ground with part of body different than feet meant defeat. So in the south they stress „ma", and in the north “zhuang”. In many styles long, low postures and centered torso are stressed. But what is real value of those stable techniques? The principle „when leg is raised, half body is empty" results in loosing opportunity of efficient kicks and hitting with knee. And the force which can be generated from non-balance is not used consciously yet. Constant talking about „not losing “center" disturbs developing agile body work and fast footwork. What is rejected in Chinese martial arts, is exactly what is most valuable on the international martial arts stage. Traditional Chinese martial arts are old men arts. Old is seen as equal to saint, authority, deep knowledge. But for old man it’s hard to raise leg for kick, and each falling down can be dangerous. So this hidden weakness of old master, in teaching process becomes taboo of “not losing balance". But fighting is not limited to shuaijiao competitions. In many cases loosing balance or even falling down is not big price for getting opportunity of executing efficient action.

12

Huang:
Let’s now talk about training methods.

Zhao:
Our martial arts teachers like to seek for differences in techniques and to hide “secrets" in techniques. But in fact, where can be real differences, and where could be secrets is training methods. Combat efficiency is decided by way of training. And methods of traditional training have low efficiency. You need a lot of time, and even after long time you are not sure if you will be able to use your skills in fighting. Training is a complex science – on border of many disciplines. Just repeating some exercises for dozens of years is not enough. I will not talk much, I will only mention several discrepancies.

First there is discrepancy between training and use. No matter which style, the problem is lack of actual fighting training. In which traditional school most time is spend on fighting training? Traditional teachers make two funny mistakes. First – they say that fighting training can only be the last part of training process, that only when you have gongli, you can start testing it in fight. Second – they think that when you become proficient in tui shou and other exercises with partner which resemble fighting, it means that you developed fighting skill. Of course it is difficult to introduce hard fighting during training. Martial arts hobbyists don’t want to go to work next day with swollen face, and bruised legs. But if you want to achieve high level in martial art, you must make it. From the beginning you should train like you will fight.

Next is discrepancy between fatigue and intensity of training. Traditional teachers talk about practicing many hours a day. This is long time training but with low intensity. Muscles and nervous system are not activated in a way which is necessary for fighting. Those teacher hate using modern training equipment, and will not ask other person to train together. They prefer to hide in dark place, keep repeating some movements and pondering over theory.

Then there is also discrepancy between theory and practice, between technique and physical attributes, between what is practiced in public and behind closed door. These are only some examples.

13

Huang:
We were talking about Chinese martial arts in general. Would you care to talk about specific styles?

Zhao:
Let’s start from xingyiquan and baguazhang…
…first xingyiquan. In 1920s and 1930s there were many representatives of xingyiquan among winners of leitai tournaments. But today „power" of xingyiquan decreased. The reason is that apart from problems common for all chinese martial arts, this one which stresses harmony-unity has many aspects where there is lack of such harmony.

For example there is lack of harmony between technique and force. In xingyiquan hitting technique is powered by pushing force. Fists or palms mainly push opponent, in small part causing damage. But it also doesn’t allow pushing opponent far away in pushing hands. Actually, it seems as if xingyiquan people have not decided whether their technique is for san shou or for tui shou.

And lack of harmony between form and intention. All are talking about form and intention both being important, but actually they go close toward one of the extremes… There is also lack of harmony between fighting methods and exercises.

People like comparing xingyiquan to western boxing. But they also fear this comparing. They think that Chinese „thing" should be pure. So when there is even coincidental similarity, they prefer to get rid of it. But I think, that as for training methods and competition, xingyiquan should learn from boxing.

Huang:
Was creation of xingyibagua a result of trying to fill shortcomings of xingyiquan by using baguazhang?

Zhao:
Mutual supplementing started from friendly contacts between Dong Haichuang and Guo Yunshen and between their students. Then Zhan Zhankui linked them together into one system. But shortcomings of xingyi cannot be filled by using bagua. Bagua also has a lot of shortcomings, and they cannot be filled by using xingyi. Baguazhang has a thick outside layers through which it is difficult to see anything. If you look from outside, there is only impression of complexness and mystery. Big part of first layer are legends about Dong Haichuan and his students. Second layer is the unnecessary and forced use of the theory of eight trigrams. Baguazhang teachers always talked about „Book of changes", but nobody could explain at least one necessary link between this martial art and that classic book. Third layer is not distinguishing between basic exercises and fighting. Even teachers think „how to use this change", „how to move around opponent with tangnibu steps", „how to move behind opponent and attack his back" - that’s just illusory thoughts. And beyond the third layer – practitioners expand their arms and move around, like people starting to learn skating, and sometimes they make some change into extremely twisted position. So this is mix of legends, old saint books and strange techniques.

Huang:
Taijiquan is attracting a lot of people, because of theory and health benefits. But many people doubt that such soft and slow method could work against explosive power…

Zhao:
Layman has not developed prejudice, so his first impression can be quite right. Taijiquan has its own form of comparing skill – tui shou. Why not be happy with just this? Not every martial art must be good for real fighting. I remember as in period of Republic of China taijiquan experts explained that the reason for no taijiquan people being able to prove their fighting skill at leitai tournaments is because taijiquan is too profound and it’s difficult to master it. Was this some kind of excuse or sincere statement? Taijiquan theory looks great and could be a model for other classical theories of martial art. The main idea is relation between yin and yang. You want to be hard? So start from being as soft as possible, because ultimate softness changes into hardness. You want to be fast? Then start from slowness. This philosophy, that after achieving extreme some attribute changes into its opposite is attracting many people. But did anyone test it? No, if you see what those taijiquan masters, who can demonstrate issuing power are practicing in secret, you will understand what I’m talking about.

Huang:
So you say that those young people who want to develop fighting skills are in some part misled by taijiquan concepts. If so, then maybe Shaolin is more sincere? They stress hard, fast, fierce, using both hands and legs. People think that Shaolin monks are the last kings of real fighting.

Zhao:
Ming dynasty generals went to Shaolin temple, having such opinion, and they became disappointed. Today many young people leave school and go to Shaolin. With the same effect – their faith in Shaolin becomes ashes. They come with thought of developing incredible fighting skill, not available for normal people. But in fact they just learn some acrobatics tricks. Training methods which they learn are outdated and not useful for developing real fighting skills. Breaking stones, standing upside-down on fingers, taking hits, when you make such demonstrations, with addition of some tricks typical for illusionists – public will be delighted. Ma Liang’s new wushu (Ma Liang published book “New Chinese wushu" in 1918) and modern wushu, despised even by representatives of traditional systems, are based on Shaolin. And I remember as in 1920s and 1930s those “last kings of real fighting" kept loosing at leitai tournaments and were going away like rats, one after another.

Huang:
And what you think about southern systems.

Zhao:
When we look at southern styles, we can see that they have their own, quite different character. But I cannot say much, as I didn’t study them. But from what I saw at the tournaments at end of 1920s „southern wind is not making you freeze".

Huang:
Finally, please tell us about the martial art created by yourself.

Zhao:
My “thing" comes from mistakes and losses. When I was young I liked to fight with famous experts. I had no respect for them, and when I defeated them, I didn’t care about some good things they had anyway. It not only disturbed exchange of knowledge, but also hurt feelings. And because disputing and maintaining different views from the main stream of Chinese martial arts, I kept some distance from the martial arts circles. Until now people call me eccentric and stubborn.

At beginning I created xinhuizhang, in order to explain traditional methods of using force, but actually this is just a form, and cannot efficiently improve practitioner’s combat abilities. Only now I’m working on summarizing all those training methods and fighting methods which I benefited from, with thought of supplementing xinhuizhang. But the way of competitive fighting on international scene is constantly changing. So my „things" are constantly being outmached by others. If will not work on improving it, there will be no progress. Lately I’m worried about xinhuizhang explosive issuing power with legs, so far I have not resolved this problem. And I hope that younger will criticize me.

14

And yes, the modern so-called martial artist “descendents” of Zhao Dao Xin are amongst the worst hoaxers of them all, and the most famous of them, the worst of them.

15

Would you please stop addressing me as if you know anything at all about what I believe, and about what my “paradigm” of internal and external is. You are projecting like crazy. What “nonsense” is it you say I am promoting? The internet hoaxers? Please point to posts I made and discuss the specifics or else shut up. Or at least stop dragging me into your personal issues and crusades.

[QUOTE=Miqi;1229822]As the old man is explicitly stating that internal and external have no meaning to him, you probably shouldn’t try to “fit” what he is saying into your entirely different paradigm of internal and external. In fact, that is probably the reason why yiquan degenerated so quickly - which it has - into precisely what Wang is criticsing here.

Whatever it is you think you do, and all the people like you, there is no common ground between that and Wang’s yiquan. I’m very sorry to tell you the truth - but the article is actually about you, criticising you. And also a lot of so-called yiquan teachers.

If you can get over that, and are interested in what he really means, then don’t over ascribe meaning to his words. Wang believed in guided “intuitive development”. In modern terms, that would be the same as teaching someone BJJ moves - that would be necessary to learn the “superfical hits and beats” in this poor translation. But “rolling” is where one develops an adaptive, intuitive ability to apply those techniques.

Still, Wang is going further - he’s saying that it is possible to enhance that process of intutive development by improving motor control and physcial power generation (for striking rather thanI just BJJ in these terms) through extra methods, such as zhan zhuang and slow movement training.

Nothing about that is “internal” in the way internet hoaxers mean it. Internal in this sense is simply unfolding intuitive ability. For most people engaged in real training, that just means some kind of basically useful ability - nothing like the nonsense you promote, I’m very sorry. I am actually embarrassed to say it - I just can’t belive adult humans are here engaging in the type of talk you do.[/QUOTE]

16

Internal and external as we know the terms today ( how they are typicaly used) are meaningless.
What any high level athlete in any sport and you will find the “internal” in what they do.

17

[QUOTE=Miqi;1229823]INTERVIEW WITH ZHAO DAOXIN
Recorded by Huang Jitao
Translated from Chinese by Andrzej Kalisz
[/QUOTE]

A lot of “gold” in that interview too. This is turning out to be an interesting thread.

18

[QUOTE=Miqi;1229828]And yes, the modern so-called martial artist “descendents” of Zhao Dao Xin are amongst the worst hoaxers of them all, and the most famous of them, the worst of them.[/QUOTE]

They are not alone.
Funny how that works though.

19

[QUOTE=MightyB;1230177]A lot of “gold” in that interview too. This is turning out to be an interesting thread.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

It seems that generation was comprised of either fighters trying to get rid of that silly perception of “internal and external” and people trying to propagate it for their own benefit.

20

[QUOTE=Miqi;1229826]Huang:
Let’s now talk about training methods.

Zhao:
Our martial arts teachers like to seek for differences in techniques and to hide “secrets" in techniques. But in fact, where can be real differences, and where could be secrets is training methods. Combat efficiency is decided by way of training. And methods of traditional training have low efficiency. You need a lot of time, and even after long time you are not sure if you will be able to use your skills in fighting. Training is a complex science – on border of many disciplines. Just repeating some exercises for dozens of years is not enough. I will not talk much, I will only mention several discrepancies.

First there is discrepancy between training and use. No matter which style, the problem is lack of actual fighting training. In which traditional school most time is spend on fighting training? Traditional teachers make two funny mistakes. First – they say that fighting training can only be the last part of training process, that only when you have gongli, you can start testing it in fight. Second – they think that when you become proficient in tui shou and other exercises with partner which resemble fighting, it means that you developed fighting skill. Of course it is difficult to introduce hard fighting during training. Martial arts hobbyists don’t want to go to work next day with swollen face, and bruised legs. But if you want to achieve high level in martial art, you must make it. From the beginning you should train like you will fight.

Next is discrepancy between fatigue and intensity of training. Traditional teachers talk about practicing many hours a day. This is long time training but with low intensity. Muscles and nervous system are not activated in a way which is necessary for fighting. Those teacher hate using modern training equipment, and will not ask other person to train together. They prefer to hide in dark place, keep repeating some movements and pondering over theory.

Then there is also discrepancy between theory and practice, between technique and physical attributes, between what is practiced in public and behind closed door. These are only some examples.[/QUOTE]

PURE GOLD.
Especially the view on fatigue and intensity.