Yiquan/internal sparring

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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Since there’s a Yiquan history thread going on I decided to look up some Yiquan sparring, which there is a surprising amount of on the web given that in most ICMA, free-sparring clips nearly non-existent.

Let’s talk about this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNZGWFVyjw

What do you think about this clip? What’s good? What’s bad? What can you see in this clip that represents internal martial arts?

A couple of things to keep in mind:

  1. They are hobbyists, not professional fighters.
  2. It’s clearly friendly/practice.
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All “internal” guys should spar like this. When you see an opening, you want to land your fist on your opponent’s face. If you know how to use jab, cross, hook, uppercut, you don’t need anything else. The “striking art” just can’t be simplier than that.

Good clip, right attitude, right direction, … If people can spar 15 rounds daily like this for 3 years, they will be good fighters for the rest of their life.

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Looks like just boxing practice .

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[QUOTE=pazman;1225330]Since there’s a Yiquan history thread going on I decided to look up some Yiquan sparring, which there is a surprising amount of on the web given that in most ICMA, free-sparring clips nearly non-existent.

Let’s talk about this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNZGWFVyjw

What do you think about this clip? What’s good? What’s bad? What can you see in this clip that represents internal martial arts?

A couple of things to keep in mind:

  1. They are hobbyists, not professional fighters.
  2. It’s clearly friendly/practice.[/QUOTE]

I am biased but all I see is boxing. It is a good workout, you build up sweat and perhaps a lot healthier than the person who just sits around.:smiley:
I realize I am a fool because I feel to understanding the concept of “internal sparring” and I remain a fool!

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[QUOTE=Robinhood;1225352]Looks like just boxing practice .[/QUOTE]

means boxing.

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[QUOTE=pazman;1225330]Since there’s a Yiquan history thread going on I decided to look up some Yiquan sparring, which there is a surprising amount of on the web given that in most ICMA, free-sparring clips nearly non-existent.

Let’s talk about this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNZGWFVyjw

What do you think about this clip? What’s good? What’s bad? What can you see in this clip that represents internal martial arts?

A couple of things to keep in mind:

  1. They are hobbyists, not professional fighters.
  2. It’s clearly friendly/practice.[/QUOTE]

Hi Pazman,
I just checked your profile and I see that you are a san da coach - so it would be useful and interesting to hear what you think of this clip.

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[QUOTE=Miqi;1225388]Hi Pazman,
I just checked your profile and I see that you are a san da coach - so it would be useful and interesting to hear what you think of this clip.[/QUOTE]

Well, the clip isn’t Sanda, and I don’t know very much about Yiquan, but here are my 2 cents:

I think for hobbyists practicing at local school, it’s pretty cool. The lady in the white shirt has some good forward pressure. Having sparred xingyiquan people I’ve always felt that same sort of forward pressure from them. I’d have to agree with Mr. Wang (YouKnowWho).

There were some stepping and hand methods I saw that I wouldn’t do myself, but I’m unfamiliar with Yiquan.

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[QUOTE=Robinhood;1225352]Looks like just boxing practice .[/QUOTE]
Why should TCMA have to be robotic and stylized? As far as I remember, the last “boxer rebellion” happened in China. When you see an opening (leak), your hand go throught that openion (leak). That’s TCMA.

All boxing techniques exists in TCMA:

jab - (Zhi Quan)
cross - (Ping Quan)
hook - (Quan Chui)
uppercut - (Cuo Chui)

Why a jab, cross combo always followed by hook, uppercut? Because a

  • straight line attack will create an opening for a circular attack.
  • horizontal circular attack (hook) will create an opening for a vertical circular attack (uppercut), or the ther way around.

There is no better hand striking combo that’s better than right jab, left cross followed by:

  • right hook, left uppercut, or
  • right uppercut, left hook, or
  • right hook, left hook, or
  • right uppercut, left uppercut.
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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225402]As far as I remember, the last “boxer rebellion” happened in China. When you see an opening (leak), your hand go throught that openion (leak). That’s TCMA.

All boxing techniques exists in TCMA:

jab - (Zhi Quan)
cross - (Ping Quan)
hook - (Quan Chui)
uppercut - (Cuo Chui)

Why a jab, cross combo always followed by hook, uppercut? Because a

  • straight line attack will create an opening for a circular attack.
  • horizontal circular attack (hook) will create an opening for a vertical circular attack (uppercut), or the ther way around.

There is no better hand striking combo that’s better than right jab, left cross followed by:

  • right hook, left uppercut, or
  • right uppercut, left hook, or
  • right hook, left hook, or
  • right uppercut, left uppercut.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your description of boxing practice, do you have a description of internal practice too. ?

10

[QUOTE=Robinhood;1225404]Thanks for your description of boxing practice, do you have a description of internal practice too. ?[/QUOTE]

You have just asked the wrong person. I don’t believe in “internal”. In this forum nobody knows “internal” better than you do. It’s your turn to share your “internal practice” knowledge and experience.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225405]You have just asked the wrong person. I don’t believe in “internal”. In this forum nobody knows “internal” better than you do. It’s your turn to share your “internal practice” knowledge and experience.[/QUOTE]

OK, I don’t see much internal in that clip, maybe some scattered internal spurts of intention , but nothing continuous or controlled that would be considered internal application.

The clip is just a one way confidence building session to make the women be aggressive , aggressive does have internal intent , but to me there is a lot more to it than just internal intent, ( efficient use of intent is a key factor in application , like being able to focus your intention to only where it will give the best return value, not through throwing out a little everywhere and hoping something hits, that is not efficient , it will waste energy and give small returns on your investment.
But if you have a lot of money to throw around, that way does give some return, but also can give a lot of loss. The guy with the inside information will make a killing .

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[QUOTE=pazman;1225396]Well, the clip isn’t Sanda, and I don’t know very much about Yiquan, but here are my 2 cents:

I think for hobbyists practicing at local school, it’s pretty cool. The lady in the white shirt has some good forward pressure. Having sparred xingyiquan people I’ve always felt that same sort of forward pressure from them. I’d have to agree with Mr. Wang (YouKnowWho).

There were some stepping and hand methods I saw that I wouldn’t do myself, but I’m unfamiliar with Yiquan.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the input, Pazman. Talking about yiquan videos generally, two possible points of constructive analysis spring to mind about yiquan sparring videos. One is that the head seems not well guarded enough, and two is how often people just turn their backs and give in once their basic guard is breached:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wseNknZ6yMA

That happens just too much to be chance - so, scientifically, that must surely be an area of possible further improvement.

Finally, I always think low kicks might be more usefully employed.

These are just generalisations of course.

Yiquan is supposed to have a philosophy of scientific criticism and progress - so, I hope most people could agree on these constructive criticisms.

In terms of ‘internal’ sparring, that’s something that’s beyond my knowledge. Yao Zong Xun said that the proper, fight based wushu of the past was more like muay thai than anything else. If anything, more should learned from boxing - in my view - especially about defence. Wang was quite happy to learn from boxing.

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There are many ways to spar with your students. Sometimes you want them aggressive, other times you want them to work on avoidance, and other times you get them to make valid counters. Getting seasoned athletes to be aggressive isn’t much of a problem, but to get the new girl or guy who just wants to practice as a hobby to be aggressive can be a challenge.

Robinhood, how can I tell if I am seeing internal or “just boxing”? I’ve practiced “internal” martial arts but I’ve felt the whole internal/external thing was a false dichotomy.

I remember drinking tea with one of my teachers in Wuhan and he was trying to explain to me “internal”.

Teacher: Chinese martial arts are much different than others. The body must be relaxed.

Me: Oh, yeah I know. My kickboxing coach in Japan was always trying to get me to relax.

Teacher: No! It’s different! In other martial arts, the power comes from big muscles. In China, we use our whole body power.

Me: I guess similar to boxing, when my coach tells me to let my punch come from my hips and feet.

Teacher: No, no, no! This is special only to internal martial arts!

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[QUOTE=Robinhood;1225410]OK, I don’t see much internal in that clip, maybe some scattered internal spurts of intention , but nothing continuous or controlled that would be considered internal application.

The clip is just a one way confidence building session to make the women be aggressive , aggressive does have internal intent , but to me there is a lot more to it than just internal intent, ( efficient use of intent is a key factor in application , like being able to focus your intention to only where it will give the best return value, not through throwing out a little everywhere and hoping something hits, that is not efficient , it will waste energy and give small returns on your investment.
But if you have a lot of money to throw around, that way does give some return, but also can give a lot of loss. The guy with the inside information will make a killing .[/QUOTE]

Hi Robinhood,
Yes - I think that’s reasonable comment. I suppose the question is, for self defence, especially for a woman, is it a good strategy to have a burst of explosive aggression to try and back someone off quickly?

Much respect to the lady in the video - she reminds of that lady in Kung Fu Hustle!

15

[QUOTE=Miqi;1225423]Hi Robinhood,
Yes - I think that’s reasonable comment. I suppose the question is, for self defence, especially for a woman, is it a good strategy to have a burst of explosive aggression to try and back someone off quickly?

Much respect to the lady in the video - she reminds of that lady in Kung Fu Hustle![/QUOTE]

Nothing wrong with it, just different way of training, it depends on what you want to develop.

16

Let’s exampling whether “internal” sparring is practical or not. Let’s have a simple definition of “internal” as

  • You use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm.
  • Your body function as one single unit. When you move, all body parts move. When you stop, all body parts stop.

If you use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm, since you have to move your waist first before the power can be sent to your arm, there is always a small delay between your waist motion and your arm motion. Can you afford that small “delay” in combat?

I has tried to let my waist to push/pull my arms. This way my opponent can only see my body movement but can’t see my arms movement. It’s good to express Shenfa and feel great too. But when I see my opponent’s opening, I start to move my waist, when my waist pull/push my arm and my arm push/pull my hand, my opponent’s opening is already closed.

In the following clip between 0.58 to 1.10, you can see CXW faiji in combat speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrF_o9BdJ4M

Is CXW moving fast enough? Within 12 seconds timeframe, he did 14 moves. That’s average 12/14 = 0.86 second per move. To me, this kind of speed is far from “combat speed”. If CXW’s opponent only drops his guard for 3/4 (0.75) second, CXW’s punch will miss his opponent’s head.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225438]Let’s exampling whether “internal” sparring is practical or not. Let’s have a simple definition of “internal” as

  • You use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm.
  • Your body function as one single unit. When you move, all body parts move. When you stop, all body parts stop.

If you use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm, since you have to move your waist first before the power can be sent to your arm, there is always a small delay between your waist motion and your arm motion. Can you afford that small “delay” in combat?

I has tried to let my waist to push/pull my arms. This way my opponent can only see my body movement but can’t see my arms movement. It’s good to express Shenfa and feel great too. But when I see my opponent’s opening, I start to move my waist, when my waist pull/push my arm and my arm push/pull my hand, my opponent’s opening is already closed.

In the following clip between 0.58 to 1.10, you can see CXW faiji in combat speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrF_o9BdJ4M

Is CXW moving fast enough? Within 12 seconds timeframe, he did 14 moves. That’s average 12/14 = 0.86 second per move. To me, this kind of speed is far from “combat speed”. If CXW’s opponent only drops his guard for 3/4 (0.75) second, CXW’s punch will miss his opponent’s head.[/QUOTE]

I think you are trying to compare 2 different things, that are not compariable.

Sparring at body level is not sparring using internal, when contact is made, internal will then be applyable, internal doing work, not external moving.

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[QUOTE=Robinhood;1225444]Sparring at body level is not sparring using internal, when contact is made, internal will then be applyable, internal doing work, not external moving.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying

  • All the footwork, body movement (Shenfa), arm movement are all “external”.
  • When you throw a punch, it starts as external. The moment that your fist “contact” your opponent’s face, it suddently turns into “internal”.
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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225451]Are you saying

  • All the footwork, body movement (Shenfa), arm movement are all “external”.
  • When you throw a punch, it starts as external. The moment that your fist “contact” your opponent’s face, it suddently turns into “internal”.[/QUOTE]

No, not really, if you move, you can be moving externally or internally, it depends what is driving it.

Energy can flow in and out, if you can only flow outward, you are only external, if you can flow energy in then you can use internal too.

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[QUOTE=Robinhood;1225456]you can be moving externally or internally, it depends what is driving it.[/QUOTE]

If you just walk “3 steps - left foot, right foot, left foot”, what’s the “external” way of walking and what’s the “internal” way of walking? How do you start your 1st step of your “internal” walking? What drive it?