[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225462]If you just walk “3 steps - left foot, right foot, left foot”, what’s the “external” way of walking and what’s the “internal” way of walking? How do you start your 1st step of your “internal” walking? What drive it?[/QUOTE]
Its in all how you use your mind, and if the body responds to the mind when trying to move using intent. If the body is in the wrong state, like out of balance and not center intention maintained, moving internally probably will not be an option.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225438]Let’s have a simple definition of “internal” as
That’s standard basics for most Chinese art practice (especially those called “external”) given how important dantian spot is as our human center of gravity.
Your second part seems a bit vague though - move as one unit?
I see a couple interpretations possibly arising from your terms - one is that the body moves with a single center of gravity (as opposed to multiple as in the taiji term “double weighted”), another possibility is that you mean with all parts of the body supporting the moving part. That would be moving ‘as a synchronized’ unit - which is also vague.
All of that has little to do with internal Nei Gong practice.
You may be confusing the terms Internal/External with different chinese terms. (Nei Jia/Wai Jia which are geographic references, and Nei gong/ Wai Gong which are practice references).
So many people on this forum can’t figure out the chinese characters for these two different terms - both of which can be incompletely said to be “Internal / External”
First we need to know what it is we’re talking about - then we can talk about what it means.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225438]If you use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm, since you have to move your waist first before the power can be sent to your arm, there is always a small delay between your waist motion and your arm motion. Can you afford that small “delay” in combat? [/QUOTE]
No matter how fast you can move your hands or waist - there is always someone faster. Understanding positioning and strategy is more important that depending on speed.
Speed matters, but it is less important than positioning in self defense. A slow fighter can look like a fast fighter if he has better positioning than someone who uses excessive movement (even if the person is significantly faster).
[QUOTE=Matthew;1225475]Understanding positioning and strategy is more important that depending on speed. [/QUOTE]
This is the most common execuses for “internal” guys who think speed and power are not important. What if your opponent also
If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. If you have to use 3/4 second to dodge it, you will be dead.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225477]This is the most common execuses for “internal” guys who think speed and power are not important. [/QUOTE]
Okay, but what does that have to do with positioning having importance over speed? What is “Internal” that you keep mentioning? Is it one of the Chinese terms I mentioned?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225477]
What if your opponent also
Your question is really way too general of a question to be of use beyond engaging the thought process behind self-defense.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225477]
How is his delivery of it? With his elbow only?
What if I can deliver 999 lb force with my finger tips? would that be better than his theoretical delivery of 1001 pounds with only his shoulder? All too vague and detached from a single flash of an eye.
Again - seems a bit too general, but may help people who don’t think about these things with “thought provoking”
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225477]
If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. If you have to use 3/4 second to dodge it, you will be dead.[/QUOTE]
Seems a bit slow with a knife - but if you cannot deflect the attack while more efficiently countering - then yes his speed beat your understanding of positioning.
Whether or not this single theoretical scenario is true or would play out does not indicate what is most important to practice when training for self defense though.
Let’s turn your scenario around to show just how shallow it really outlines the need for any one trait (no matter if it is speed, positioning, etc.)
[QUOTE=ExaggeratedRephrasing;1225477]
If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. Even if you can 1/4 second dodge it, you will be dead if he has enough strategic positioning to have closed off your only gates to “dodge” out from.[/QUOTE]
Just goes to show that generalizations and theoretical scenarios don’t provide enough evidence to train purely based on one or two of them - although they obviously provide thought-provoking situations to discuss.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225477]This is the most common execuses for “internal” guys who think speed and power are not important. What if your opponent also
If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. If you have to use 3/4 second to dodge it, you will be dead.[/QUOTE]
What if, what if, …I wonder why , trying to remember every condition and counter will never work, if you have to think about what you can do, you will be late every time.
You need to be able to react with out thinking about it, if you are doing internal it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.
Thinking works for training purposes because you can slow everything down and try to reprogram the body.
This is what you have said.
[QUOTE=Matthew;1225475]Speed matters, but it is less important than positioning in self defense. [/QUOTE]
This is what I have said,
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225477]What if your opponent also understands position and strategy, but he is faster than you?[/QUOTE]
To say that speed is less important than … seems a bit too general.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1225555]if you are doing internal it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.[/QUOTE]
I’ll say the opposite - If you are doing “external”, it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.
“Internal” guys like to talk about “(Yi Qi Li)”, external guys don’t.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225556]This is what you have said.
This is what I have said,
To say that speed is less important than … seems a bit too general.
I’ll say the opposite - If you are doing “external”, it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.
“Internal” guys like to talk about “(Yi Qi Li)”, external guys don’t.[/QUOTE]
How can you weigh the difference if you say internal does not exists . ?, if you could do both, then you can compare , only knowing one side does not give you first hand knowledge to compare. What ever reacts faster is probably internal reaction anyway not external. Having time to think then react is more external reaction,do you drive your car externally or internally .?, you don’t tell your arm and foot every little correction consciously thinking about them.
External is using Li.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225556]
To say that speed is less important than … seems a bit too general.
I’ll say the opposite - If you are doing “external”, it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much. [/QUOTE]
I’ve already twice asked you to define Internal/External terms in Chinese so we can understand what you’re trying to say.
A good roofer first learns how to hold a hammer, then how to hold a nail, then how to hit the nail while positioning body and mind to move to the next nail. Through regular practicing of the basics - he will develop speed and power in his work.
Positioning (of self/posture first- then in relation to others) is a strong foundation to start - speed and power alone don’t have principles - and so they depend on positioning.
When a strong foundation is laid, speed and power are naturally developed.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225556]
“Internal” guys like to talk about “(Yi Qi Li)”, external guys don’t.[/QUOTE]
Contrary to your claims, I know people who identify as “External (practice” and "Internal () practice“ who use all these terms. Even many Chinese teachers I’ve seen on youtube use these terms no matter what distinctions are drawn
In fact, depending on how these terms you put are translated - I’ve seen many classic boxing teachers even talk about these terms (Yi Qi Li) - in fact most martial arts talk about them.
Isn’t this thread about Yi Quan (Intent Style Boxing) of Wang Xiang Zhai and sparring of his disciples? If you can’t define Internal or External - why not simply discuss what practices Yi Quan has that could benefit others?
[QUOTE=Matthew;1225576]I’ve already twice asked you to define Internal/External terms in Chinese so we can understand what you’re trying to say. [/QUOTE]
I already did.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225438]Let’s have a simple definition of “internal” as
Let me borrow Adam Hsu’s definition here.
http://imageshack.us/a/img534/2232/internalb.jpg
Translated:
The word “internal” was invented by a none TCMA guy (a scholar) Hwang Zung-Si at the end of the Ming dynasty.
External is a term to look down upon others. At the end of the Ching dynasty, XingYi and Bagua guys treated every other styles as “flower fist”. Later on they accepted Taiji as one of them. … Nobody want to be “external” … The difference between external and internal is not the difference between styles but the difference between training level … Every style when you started it, you are training external. When you get into detail, you are training internal … Since all TCMA systems take this path, there is no such thing as “internal” and “external”.
Adam Hsu and I share the same views on this subject.
at least they have gloves on and going with a little intent. Half the trouble with most “traditional” schools these days, they don’t pad up and go with some commitment.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225578]
There is no “external” and “internal”[/QUOTE]
They both exist - IME they have overlap and are not mutually exclusive practice methods as many on this forum suggest - but there are definitely internal and external practices
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225578]
Even the right way to do thing such as to let your body to push your arm will need to be modified in combat in order to gain speed.[/QUOTE]
I won’t comment as I don’t practice in your lineage of Xing Yi Quan (that you may be misquoting here either way). Either way - if you are truly practicing Xin Yi (, the predecessor of Xing Yi, it’s said that subconscious/habitual and intentional movement are united - so how can there be a delay of a hand or a body? If united, what is there to delay?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225578]
Let me borrow Adam Hsu’s definition here.
http://imageshack.us/a/img534/2232/internalb.jpg
[/QUOTE]
Ahh - okay finally you define it in Chinese terms.
Note that you are using (Nei Jia and Wai Jia) terminology which is obvious are not practice-related terms. I don’t think your terminology (NeiJia/WaiJia) are even relevant when discussing YiQuan sparring methodology. They are merely geographic/locational indicators and not practice methods.
IT is possible you have confused the terms you are using with those others here are using - which is “Internal and External Practices” (Nei Gong / Wai Gong
NeiGong (not Nei Jia) may be relevant to the thread though, as YiQuan focuses on some varied form(s) of NeiGong training according to Wang Xiang Zhai’s disciple son:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTM2MDI2ODcy.html
[QUOTE=Matthew;1225587]if you are truly practicing Xin Yi (, the predecessor of Xing Yi, it’s said that subconscious/habitual and intentional movement are united - so how can there be a delay of a hand or a body? If united, what is there to delay?[/QUOTE]
Unless you can move your hip, knee, foot, shoulder, elbow, hand all at the same time, as long as your:
there will be some delay between your shoulder and your hand. If you look at CXW’s clip, you can see that delay.
I don’t believe in “internal”.
agree with you on that. It’s a modern term in practice.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1225578]I already did.
There is no “external” and “internal” but the “right way to do thing” and the “wrong way to do thing”. Even the right way to do thing such as to let your body to push your arm will need to be modified in combat in order to gain speed.
Let me borrow Adam Hsu’s definition here.
http://imageshack.us/a/img534/2232/internalb.jpg
Translated:
The word “internal” was invented by a none TCMA guy (a scholar) Hwang Zung-Si at the end of the Ming dynasty.
External is a term to look down upon others. At the end of the Ching dynasty, XingYi and Bagua guys treated every other styles as “flower fist”. Later on they accepted Taiji as one of them. … Nobody want to be “external” … The difference between external and internal is not the difference between styles but the difference between training level … Every style when you started it, you are training external. When you get into detail, you are training internal … Since all TCMA systems take this path, there is no such thing as “internal” and “external”.
Adam Hsu and I share the same views on this subject.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know what you call detail, but most styles don’t even get close to practicing internal, maybe they don’t have what you call detail, I think I have seen some clips of Adam even trying to explain his view of internal
[QUOTE=pazman;1225330]Since there’s a Yiquan history thread going on I decided to look up some Yiquan sparring, which there is a surprising amount of on the web given that in most ICMA, free-sparring clips nearly non-existent.
Let’s talk about this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNZGWFVyjw
What do you think about this clip? What’s good? What’s bad? What can you see in this clip that represents internal martial arts?
A couple of things to keep in mind:
All this clip is showing is a man who is too shy to hit his female sparring partner in a boxing match.
[QUOTE=pazman;1225330]Since there’s a Yiquan history thread going on I decided to look up some Yiquan sparring, which there is a surprising amount of on the web given that in most ICMA, free-sparring clips nearly non-existent.
Let’s talk about this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNZGWFVyjw
What do you think about this clip? What’s good? What’s bad? What can you see in this clip that represents internal martial arts?
A couple of things to keep in mind:
All this clip is showing is a man who is too shy to hit his female sparring partner in a boxing match. It’s hard for men and women to do this kind of training together. In terms of internal sparring…it looks a lot like external sparring.
[2] Interviewer: What is the basis of combat science?
Wang Xiangzhai: What is, after all, the basic principle of combat science? Different people have different answers to this question, but studying boxing routines, forms of movements, fixed techniques, and training hits and beats, all fall into the category of superficial, and although the boxing routines and forms of movements have been popular already for a long time, they are, indeed, extremely harmful to the people.
[3] Interviewer: ‘Xingyi’, ‘Taiji’, ‘Bagua’, and ‘Tongbei’ are considered to be schools of internal boxing, what are the differences of all these branches?
Wang Xiangzhai: People often say that ‘Xingyi’, ‘Taiji’, ‘Bagua’ and ‘Tongbei’ are internal styles, I do not know how the names of internal and external came about, so I cannot comment on that.
Source: http://taijijourney.blogspot.co.uk/2005/07/interview-with-mr-wang-xiangzhai.html
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1225773]All this clip is showing is a man who is too shy to hit his female sparring partner in a boxing match. It’s hard for men and women to do this kind of training together. In terms of internal sparring…it looks a lot like external sparring.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I’m reading too much into the video, but I get the feeling that either the man is the coach and he’s eliciting a certain response from his student, or they are playing roles. This is more common than you think in gyms. I’m not exactly sure why you think it’s difficult for men and women to train together, but I know maybe in some traditional environments there might be a lot of gender discrimination, possibly due to the fact that the men there are insecure in their own masculinity.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1225769]I don’t know what you call detail, but most styles don’t even get close to practicing internal, maybe they don’t have what you call detail, I think I have seen some clips of Adam even trying to explain his view of internal[/QUOTE]
Hardwork, you seem to allude to internal, but whenever I read your posts I’m not sure exactly what sort of definition you got going on in your head. When Mr. Wang mentions internal, six harmonies, etc, it’s much more lucid, and is more in line with what I’ve been told by “internal” masters, and read about in my own time. Who did you train under? This might clue in a little better as to where you are coming from.
Hardwork, you seem to allude to internal, but whenever I read your posts I’m not sure exactly what sort of definition you got going on in your head.
everyone else knows he is, no use playing games.