Internal: cutting to the chase

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

OK, a lot of folks have had a lot to say about internal the past two weeks. Now, I don’t want to keep going to bed and thinking, “these guys don’t know what the hell they’re taking about” so, please, share with the board what kind of internal you have or have experienced first hand.

We’ll start with the most basic: breathing.

From how many areas do you breath?

What I mean by this is that the diaphragm is the greatest common denominator, everyone uses that to expand the lungs (the lungs acting like a spunge). But that is the most basic. And surely a bunch of skilled internalist have found a way to expand the lung capacity further. So please, do tell.

2

Stand with your feet approximately shoulder width apart, weight evenly distributed on both feet.

Stand as though your head and spine were suspended on a marionette string. This will bring your spine and head into proper alignment.

Shoulder blades need to be rotated down and back slightly, but relaxed. This will bring the shoulders very slightly back and the chest very slightly forward.

The hands should be held loosely in front of roughly the belly button area, the arms curved and awar from the sides of the body as if you were carrying a very light ball.

Exhale as far as you possibly can to begin the breath exercise. Using the diaphragm, expand your belly outwards. As you do this, you will notice that full, deep breathing is impossible without also expanding your ribcage forward and out to the sides. This will create a small amount of tension in the middle back - it will feel like your ribs are expanding slightly to the rear, but it’s actually muscular - an illusion. This occurs because your body is naturally stabilizing your torso.

Do not raise your chest and shoulders higher. This creates tension and restricts breathing.

Begin aria.

3

Now, when you exhale, let the torso compreses vertically like an accordian. When you breath in, let it expand vertiaclly like an accordion.

As you exhale, bend the knees and elbows in, and unbend as you in hale. This is the core body mechanics of the internal. It has profound power generation once you know how to use it.

Other than the body mechanics issue, I don’t see much between internal and external. Internal is harder to learn because you must retrain the body to move drastically differently than it is commonly used to.

external uses a twsiting sort of motion. The way the hips are used in the standard “Karate” punch best illistrates it to me. It is more common to the way people normally move anyway, so it is easier to pick up.

4

Merry, I’m super impressed that you mention expanding the cavity and rib cage.

My master was talking about building a silo to hold rice, and say you started with something that had relative dimensions to a sheet of paper. Which would have more volume, folding it vertically or horizontally into a silo? Horizontally has more volume because of pi (he’s an engeneer, I’m not)

The point, is that everyone talks about dropping the diaphragm, but expanding the width affords added volume as well.

The math doesn’t mean anything to me, I’m not a sceintist. But he showed me a view things and you can expand several areas throughout the torso. Right now I can implement 3 and working on the fourth.

It’s interesting and new to me. He’s also showed me an excersice the joints, expand and contract them … this is useful in locking and preventing being locked. But now I see that those old guys aren’t just standing there … they’re doing stuff.

…

On another note, you coming up to NYC next month? If so, try to make it out to my party on May 14th. Should be pretty good, a couple DJs, open bar, hopefully a lot of chicks :wink:

Also, I’m organizing a MMA open mat for April 17th if you’re interested, though I know you’re a ways away.

5

A. Breathing exercise is important or Qi Gong.

Standing practice as described is important.

There are also meditation or sensing and focusing to different parts of the body.

The idea is developing the sensing acuity in different parts of the body.

From intent (Yi) via Qi flow, a Jing is produced. This is the theory.

B. The goal is that you may produce Jing from every part of your body or Hun Shen Shi Jing .

When in fight, you are sensing, neutralizing, guiding, and emptying out the opponent’s Jing. You in turn also release your own Jing in a most efficient way to unbalance the opponent. You may use any part of your body to do that. Not just iron palm, fist, one finger or any single specialized one part of the body only.

It is all about Jing. Qi flow, too.

This is the theory.

For example, when you practice Tai Ji Lao Jia Yi Lu or Chen Chang Xing form, you practice and cultivate the intent and Qi flow in your standing in postures or in movements. You do not tense your muscles or try to relax all over so that you may move smoothly. To move slowly, so that your Qi and body are attuned to all the various points in the circle.

The direction of Jing is changing all the time. This gives you the flexibility and ability to change in any point in the circle. There are circles in your wrist, elbow, shoulder, waist, hip, knee and angle and steps.

Yes, you may practice any other form and focus on breathing and intent, too.

In contrast, with Pao Zui Er Lu you focus on releasing directional Jing in Cai Lie Zhou Kao, you do practice fast, stop and go. You focus on those 4 Jing issuing, no longer doing them slowly. So you have to have a good base in first routine and then practice the second routine.

What is internal?

It is about intent and Qi cultivation. It is about circles. It is about neutralizing Jing in all directions. It is about ability to issue your own Jing from all over your body.----

In order to listen, we have to use a little Peng Jing to contact, link, stick and follow. We listen or test the direction of the opponent’s Jing by using a little Peng Jing in all directional circular move.

If you have a Peng Jing all over your body from relaxing and not tensing up?

There is a continuous movement from inward to outward (Peng and internal) in hands, arms, steps etc. We have to do a turn exchange—

It is about circular and spiraling kinetics. Ruo Xuan Jing in Ba Gua.–

:smiley:

6

I am not saying that I know it all.

But from my observations and practices.

Maybe it is all about where and how you focus the various aspects of your physical ability (external) and mental (internal) ability.

The theory may be wide apart.

The practice or moves (external) may look the same. The intent may be different.

2 things people like to argue about.

  1. Qi. Can you prove Qi or what is Qi? Qi is in everything. Qi is air and O2 you breathe in. Both external or internal need Qi to work. If you focus more on gaining more smooth or longer Qi flow. In Tai Ji Qi gong, you practice to have 4 breaths per min and doing abdominal breathing in your moves, too. But all start with natural breathing.

  2. Body mechanics. In order to do the different requirements from your intent, you have different body mechanics in every styles.

So where is the answer?

If I say too much, I will be labelled as troll supreme.

If I say nothing, I will be labelled as dunno kowner

Maybe the answer, my friends, is blowing in the wind? This is the song lyrics quoted by President Chen of Taiwan.

Yes, the ability to change may differentiate internal from external.

Or is it an empty exercise?

The question is always that where are you sailing?

The answer, my friends, is blowing in the wind?

:smiley:

7

Ray,

What I wrote was “basic stance” for formal voice training. :smiley: I always get a kick out of the idea that “eastern” knows all this stuff about breathing and “western” doesn’t. Not that you necessarily hold this view, but it is a sort of common thing bandied about.

As you exhale, bend the knees and elbows in, and unbend as you in hale. This is the core body mechanics of the internal. It has profound power generation once you know how to use it.

A natural byproduct of proper breathing in that stance, IMO, provided everything is appropriately relaxed/tensed. The elbows WILL sink towards the sides if this is done right…

It’s amazing that people forget how to do this as they grow up. Babies have no problem.

Ray, I MAY be able to come around in April. I have a lot of thesis work to do, and I am behind.

8

Efficient breathing is the same no matter what your reasons for it are. I’m just using common sense here, but I would imagine that healthy posture (ie: what Merry is talking about in his instructions for breathing) goes a long way toward many other benefits as well - not just musical and martial, either, although definitely including those.

In my taiji classes, we paid a lot of attention to getting posture right. If I’m not mistaken, that’s one of the main reasons that you practice movements slowly. See my tagline.

9

Efficient breathing is the same no matter what your reasons for it are.

Exactly…yet, people think their individual styles are somehow relying on different principles than somebody elses? Hmmmm…

10

“Our martial arts principles require us to stare at our feet, with hips thrust forward, buttocks clenched, heels together and toes apart! Let your knees bend, roll your shoulders forward and clasp both hands over your groin, crossing the arms at the wrist with the fingers interlaced and the thumbs toward your body. In this ready stance, you are practically invincible!”

11

Aah…a graduate student…that explains ALOT!

12

why is breathing so important?

The military trains marksmen and sharpshooters to breathe when shooting.

Singers are taught to breathe similiar.

People who run a lot breathe a similiar way.

Swimmers breath a certain way.

Martial artists breathe a certain way as well.

How to breathe, relax the body, only use tension where its needed. Breathe in your your nose and expand it down to your dan tien, and let your diaphram expand. This is called buddhist breathe. Taoist breath is done the same way but when you epxand the diaphram you push the breath up more towards yours your chest, it instead expands above your diaphram. Then there is yoga breathe, which is a three part breathing, same theroy applies but you expand it from the diaphram and push it up even further near the solar plexes.

Really, as long as you are using your whole lung capacity its good breathing. Most people do not use their whole lung capacity and it can lead to bad health later down the road. If you do not exercise your lungs properly when you get older and weaker, your lungs will diminish faster over someone who has exercised their lungs over the years. I do not mean no pain no gain either. I mean just utilizing the lungs for what they are good for, breathing, and utilizing them to their fullest capacity.

13

What I wrote was “basic stance” for formal voice training. I always get a kick out of the idea that “eastern” knows all this stuff about breathing and “western” doesn’t. Not that you necessarily hold this view, but it is a sort of common thing bandied about.

Sadly, it’s true. Beofre China was discovered breathing in the west was just sloppy and inefficient.

14

Merry: interestingly enough, my master used singers as an example when teaching this lesson, talking about how they have a “back of the throat” voice as well as a few others, and pointed out how a small chested woman can fill her chest up so large in one moment and then deflate it the next. :slight_smile:

SPJ: It’s a sad fact that on one hand people are curious or want to know about something, and then on the other hand they are quick to judge or not believe what you are telling them even though it is true and they lack experience in the matter. What can ya do?

Everyone has chi in them if they believe it or not. I drink water and it quenches me if I know how it does so scientificaly or not.

15

HAHAHA! i find this very amusing… spiraler gets banned and now everyone loves qigong!!! maybe…just maybe you guys will figure something out!

16

on deep breathing, i like to place my hands on my hips, inhale as much as i can, pushing my breath all the way up into the area under my armpits, then on the exhale sink it all down to the dantien.do this until you feel lightheaded, pushing it down to the dantien each time, it will clear your mind and calm you down.

17

hey spiraler/taichibob, whadja do to get banned? I mean other then be an @ss

18

Is internal strength something that only a martial artist can obtain?

Could you please post the reason for your yes or no answer?

19

Is internal strength something that only a martial artist can obtain?

In my opinion no. What people seem to mean by internal is a certain kinesthetic awareness, that, IMO can be developed by Olympic weightlifters, gymnasts, dancers, baseball players, etc.

20

I thought that spiraler was happeh?

Or is it You that is Spiraler? happeh is happeh and taichibob is taichibob? You want to cause your target grief so you come up with a plan.

You are spiraller and act obnoxious. Then you accuse the person you don’t like, happeh, of being spiraller. Happeh only posts every few days so in one of the lull periods between posting, you post a bunch of crazy stuff as spiraller. Gullible people believe you when you tell them happeh and spiraller are the same person and both are banned.

Telling people happeh was spiraller got happeh banned, so now you are trying the same game with taichibob. Accuse taichibob of being spiraller or another one of your invented nicknames. As long as people stay gullible and trust you, why shouldn’t it work again?

I don’t think spiraler and happeh were the same. Happeh sounded like he believed what he was saying. Happeh insisted he could prove everything he said. Spirallers posts sound like a kid skipping around saying meaningless things to people. Whoever accused Happeh of being Spiraler got what they wanted. Getting happeh banned. All it took was some false accusation, deceit and deception.